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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 15, 2017 18:05:06 GMT -5
How many championships we have in the prior 3?
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Post by ncaam on Oct 15, 2017 18:06:30 GMT -5
Not enuf
Btw you didn’t answer the question. If the answer is less than six in my mind that’s all we need to know
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 15, 2017 18:51:34 GMT -5
If it is an improvement over the prior three years, yes it is enough in the first three full years as AD.
Now answer my question. Are 6 championships in 3 years an improvement over the 3 years before NP arrived? How much of an improvement?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 15, 2017 18:58:55 GMT -5
Prior to the men's basketball team winning the Patriot League Tournament Championship in 2016, no Crusader team had won a conference title since football in November 2009. Over that span, we went something along the lines of 0 for 150 in winning team conference championships. I'm not counting the Women's Hockey Team winning that ECAC Open Tournament that they play in every year with SHU, St. Anselm and St. Mike's.
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 15, 2017 19:06:41 GMT -5
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 15, 2017 19:10:02 GMT -5
Not enuf Btw you didn’t answer the question. If the answer is less than six in my mind that’s all we need to know Hilarious but expected that you are now chirping about "not winning enough", but you thought MB deserved a 6th year by NP after never even coming within shouting distance of a PL title.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 15, 2017 20:54:32 GMT -5
Two things that should happen in the upcoming search:
1) Form a committee with people who know football and people who know Holy Cross. This is an extremely important decision for the future of the football program at HC, and if Pine thinks he has all the answers himself, that is a mistake.
2) No more funneling $50K kickbacks to a search firm like the basketball farce.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 15, 2017 21:03:43 GMT -5
If DHR International is hired to find the next coach, this will tell us everything we need to know, Caro.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 16, 2017 6:58:14 GMT -5
Are six PL championships over three years an acceptable metric in your mind? The college has chosen the path of participation. Even though it spends an extraordinary amount of money on athletics compared to its peers, not enough money is spent on enough non-revenue sports to get you to the goal of two championships a year. Putting football and basketball aside, you would need to load up on scollies for soccer, lacrosse, and several of the women's sports to practically guarantee two championships a year, and beat out Boston U., or Loyola which use that approach. The non-football schools tend to target several sports where their scollies are at the max allowed by the NCAA. Looking at the spending, I don't believe any HC sport (other than football and hoops) caps out at the scollie max. I looked at the Boston U field hockey roster after BU trounced HC. Four or five international players, and recurring mentions in the U.S.player bios on being on the U.S. junior national teams. The BU players had skill levels that simply surpassed those of the HC players. As for football and basketball. I don't see recruits with **** and *** rankings flocking to HC. In football, compare the number of Ivy players in the NFL to the number of PL players. In basketball, if a PL school lucks out and successfully recruits a very talented player, that school can practically cement a championship for several years. The next Bob Cousy is not walking through the door at Luth. Finally, the current and prospective costs cf ice hockey complicates the PL championships task for both Colgate and HC..
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Post by gks on Oct 16, 2017 7:32:05 GMT -5
When your teams stink across the board or are mediocre at best it is not a problem with the AD. As an outsider I see facility upgrades that are wonderful, an increased effort in marketing and an updating of the athletic department (which was run like a high school under previous regime). AD cannot admit players who are rejected and play at other PL schools. I'm sure the AD didn't make the men's hoop team bus back from Loyola, stay in Worcester for a few hours then immediately bus to Bucknell on no sleep during the PL tournament in 2016. I've said in the past...if you want to play D1 then act like it.
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Post by hc6774 on Oct 16, 2017 8:43:09 GMT -5
Two things that should happen in the upcoming search: 1) Form a committee with people who know football and people who know Holy Cross. This is an extremely important decision for the future of the football program at HC, and if Pine thinks he has all the answers himself, that is a mistake. 2) No more funneling $50K kickbacks to a search firm like the basketball farce. Presumable this committee would be different that the group supporting the 3 yr extention
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 16, 2017 9:04:54 GMT -5
No one is addressing the issue at hand. Should athletic success and failure be part of adnp’s performance review? Be a "part" of an AD's review...certainly. There are, however, other factors.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 16, 2017 9:20:13 GMT -5
No kidding. If winning and losing is number eight in his critical elements, what kind of winning do we expect from him. Some generalized we got to do better. Or a more specific way ie two championships a year which is my suggestion. Anyone else have some rational specific suggestions?
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 16, 2017 9:33:51 GMT -5
No kidding. If winning and losing is number eight in his critical elements, what kind of winning do we expect from him. Some generalized we got to do better. Or a more specific way tteo championships a year which is my suggestion. Anyone else have some rational specific suggestions? Sarcasm is unnecessary here and I am not sure what you saw as "irrational." You asked if winning and losing should be part of the evaluation of a coach. Your closed question required only a yes or no to be answered. You pointed out that people were not answering the question you asked. Then you become sarcastic when I gave you an actual answer. Your most recent question is not the same one (but I am not sure what you mean by "tteo championships"). I believe that the integrity of the coach and the program is at least as important as the won/loss record of the team/coach. The staff he hires and can maintain would be another factor. And, no, I was not "kidding" then or now but perhaps you interpreted it that way.
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Post by actualfactual on Oct 21, 2017 7:21:24 GMT -5
I'd argue that Pine can most directly control fund raising, PR, administration and head coach hiring. I see improvement in the first three areas. For my own understanding, as a newbie and non-follower of the less popular sports, are there real examples where Pine has hired new coaches who seem to be building winning programs? I get that he's only been around for three seasons in some cases, which may make it hard to see what I am asking about.
Championships can be a good shorthand measure but there will always be situations where your heavily favored team is upset, or the opposite, like Men's Basketball in 2016. The school would be in a good place if most programs were along the lines of Baseball, which is in the conversation for the league championship more years than not. As I said, it's not always easy to see this. Baseball's strategy to compete in the Patriot League is to play a tough non-league schedule, so our successful coach has a career losing record. That might get Coach D fired at some schools but it's the right approach at HC. Do people see programs rebuilding like Baseball was a few years ago, under coaches hired by Pine?
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Post by hchoops on Oct 21, 2017 7:24:09 GMT -5
Women’s lax A. Belichick
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 21, 2017 7:33:56 GMT -5
Would not call her a good hire. She doesn't exactly have a very good reputation on campus.
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Post by actualfactual on Oct 21, 2017 7:54:00 GMT -5
I am not a Pine hater by any means but if on-field performance doesn't eventually catch up with improvements in facilities, PR and administration, what's the point? Until there are a handful of obvious examples of programs turning around under coaches hired by Pine, the jury is out. He deserves more time but the corks should stay in the champagne bottles for now.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 21, 2017 8:29:27 GMT -5
Would not call her a good hire. She doesn't exactly have a very good reputation on campus. At least some players say otherwise
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Post by realism on Oct 21, 2017 8:45:46 GMT -5
if on-field performance doesn't eventually catch up with improvements in facilities, PR and administration, what's the point? I'm not a Pine hater either. But, its inevitable, as the years of performance records accumulate since ADNP's hire, that his skills will be more critically understood and analyzed by the H.C community. The opinions on that have been as varied as the posters on this board. But the trend is increasingly for posters to separate the on-field performance accomplishments from the administrative ones. I will say that I've always considered the challenge that ADNP took on at H.C. as very formidable. There was nothing in his resume to suggest that he had significant skills in on field peformance enhancement. Nevertheless, some on this board seemed to ascribe powers of magic to ADNP. ( So, what else is new ? ) I think it's good to have an open mind. But, I don't think he'll prove to be a multi-skilled wunderkind in performance enhancement. It might be good to keep that in mind as this board reviews the performance of ADNP's new head football coach hire against the formidable schedules in 2018-19 and beyond that ADNP created for him a couple of years ago.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 21, 2017 8:48:09 GMT -5
I'd argue that Pine can most directly control fund raising, PR, administration and head coach hiring. I see improvement in the first three areas. For my own understanding, as a newbie and non-follower of the less popular sports, are there real examples where Pine has hired new coaches who seem to be building winning programs? I get that he's only been around for three seasons in some cases, which may make it hard to see what I am asking about. Championships can be a good shorthand measure but there will always be situations where your heavily favored team is upset, or the opposite, like Men's Basketball in 2016. The school would be in a good place if most programs were along the lines of Baseball, which is in the conversation for the league championship more years than not. As I said, it's not always easy to see this. Baseball's strategy to compete in the Patriot League is to play a tough non-league schedule, so our successful coach has a career losing record. That might get Coach D fired at some schools but it's the right approach at HC. Do people see programs rebuilding like Baseball was a few years ago, under coaches hired by Pine? [ DiCenzo has won one PLC in 10 years of coaching in a 6-team league. I'd pump the brakes on trying to emulate whatever his strategy may be with other teams. It's not so difficult to be "in the conversation" for a championship in a league with only 5 other teams who each have very little baseball tradition.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 21, 2017 9:05:34 GMT -5
I'd argue that Pine can most directly control fund raising, PR, administration and head coach hiring. I see improvement in the first three areas. For my own understanding, as a newbie and non-follower of the less popular sports, are there real examples where Pine has hired new coaches who seem to be building winning programs? I get that he's only been around for three seasons in some cases, which may make it hard to see what I am asking about. Championships can be a good shorthand measure but there will always be situations where your heavily favored team is upset, or the opposite, like Men's Basketball in 2016. The school would be in a good place if most programs were along the lines of Baseball, which is in the conversation for the league championship more years than not. As I said, it's not always easy to see this. Baseball's strategy to compete in the Patriot League is to play a tough non-league schedule, so our successful coach has a career losing record. That might get Coach D fired at some schools but it's the right approach at HC. Do people see programs rebuilding like Baseball was a few years ago, under coaches hired by Pine? You bring up some excellent points here. Coach D's baseball is a rare HC example of a team trending in the right direction the last few years. Plays a tough schedule against national powers, recruits great kids, leverages his contacts in Cape Cod (and other) League, develops a tenacious quality in the kids, does well in the competitive (Army, Navy, etc.) Patriot baseball league, etc. And the College does not throw money at the program. I am aware that different sports have different circumstances. ADNP's shortcomings regarding the well-funded and schollie football program are a bit glaring to some. A bit slow to make the obvious change (s). (Note: I am not suggesting TG was a bad person.) On a related topic, one or two Crossports posters have routinely asserted that HC schollie football recruiting finally picked up these last two years. Non-redshirt programs that claim that can point to large contributions from freshmen and sophomores. That is the proof. The theory being that if the team is not too good, talented recruits can certainly break in as freshmen and sophomores (especially at the speed positions). See Columbia for one example. Not at HC. Perhaps quality recruiting was another issue ADNP was aware of and was part of the unprecedented mid-season firing decision... given the timing?
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Post by HC1843 on Oct 21, 2017 12:09:01 GMT -5
No kidding. If winning and losing is number eight in his critical elements, what kind of winning do we expect from him. Some generalized we got to do better. Or a more specific way ie two championships a year which is my suggestion. Anyone else have some rational specific suggestions? I pray we can find a way to ban you for good from the board and make it stick instead of enduring the incessant passive aggressive questions about how you can lock posters into agreed upon metrics which you will incessantly point to and post about how he should be fired ASAP. Good times. Cheerios.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 21, 2017 14:01:04 GMT -5
Time for Nate to go. The facilities are built. Programs just about across the Board are failing. DiCenzo was a DR hire. Oh my. When does baseball start?
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 21, 2017 14:08:25 GMT -5
Time for Nate to go. The facilities are built. Programs just about across the Board are failing. DiCenzo was a DR hire. Oh my. When does baseball start? In case you did not know, baseball starts after basketball and ice hockey seasons. Can you give the anti-ADNP diatribe a rest? I can't imagine that anyone has not heard you, or that many agree with your stringent point of view.
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