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Post by jkh67 on Oct 21, 2017 17:31:06 GMT -5
ADNP, has the right idea. Football is a huge investment and right now it is drowning. This is not a new problem but a solution has got to happen quickly. He is going to have to find a young coach that is going to use HC as a stepping stone, but here for 5 years. My personal opinion is that it's the coaching and recruiting. A good program should make enough money to support other sports at the school, this is becoming a very large financial liability. HC has the facilities now and the education that it should be very attractive with a full scholarship. Hell back in the day (80's) if you got a full boot to HC and you lived in the Northeast it was a no brainer. I have watched all the games and it is a program issue and it has to be uprooted and replanted. At the end of the day these are young men that need to be lead, that is not happening. I will continue to support this team by watching because as a former collegiate football player that means something, you dont quit as a team member or a fan. The players give up most of their summers to play this game you know they just hate losing. Let's pray that this administration finds a suitable coach that can lead a winning program. Don't hold your breath about "this administration". It's led by (1) a President who's not really a Holy Cross guy and whose interest in football and basketball as integral components of the HC identity/brand seems open to question, and (2) an AD who's big on glitter, smoke and mirrors...but not so much when it comes to the only important metric for an AD. To wit, WINNING THE G.D. GAMES. And the problem is by no means limited to the marquee sports programs. As has been oft said "a fish stinks from the head down". Res ipsa loquitor, my friends.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 17:42:47 GMT -5
There is a lot of blame to go around a the coaching and administration level. But This is the first time since I was a freshman in 2004 that I can say I’m embarrassed by the lack of pride and effort displayed by our players in the 2nd half of that game. Really dissapointing to see. 67, do you see a problem with the offensive line not putting out? I mean how do you go from the way the start of the year to went to now it’s just a jailbreak to the quarterback. I’m wondering if there’s some jealousy animosity whatever that developed during the year maybe where the coaches blamed the line rather than the quarterback for the problems and the line didn’t like it. Could that possibly be the case? I have been thinking about this very question sporadically throughout the afternoon. As someone who played with Chris Smith I can tell you he knows what he's doing as well as how to coach an offensive line (as evidenced earlier this season) In my experience, even in tough seasons or during a hopeless game, I've never been a part of a unit where guys would ever intentionally sabotage a play to get back at a player - This is legitimately unheard of in the game of football in my experience - If nothing else, it's a pride / character thing. What I do know is that the offensive line, in general, is a very cerebral position -- And when you start getting beat and things start to go down the tubes, it can snowball pretty fast. The sacks that we were giving up were inexplicable from my perspective, but at the same time I've been in a position where I've gotten beaten and then there's a busted play and all of the sudden you can't seem to find your rythm again - this gets compounded by skill players dropping balls etc, and pretty soon if the coaching staff isn't able to manage the team people are looking around like "what the hell are we doing here" I think what we witnessed is the culmination of a pretty terrible team meltdown that came to a culmination last week at Yale. When you put as much time and effort into what it takes to play college football at that level and you start off the season thinking this is going to be the year, and then within the course of 20 days see all to you've worked for devolve to the point that you're playing for an interim head coach... I think it can start to get to your head. It was a similar feeling in '04 when Coach Allen was sick and things seemed in disarray. To answer your question, I don't think it's intentional, but I do think it's symptomatic of what's transpiring within the team right now - There is no reason physically or mentally that those mistakes should been being made given the simplicity of the defensive schema Colgate was running. I also do think there were guys out there who were mailing it in - And that's absolutely shameful.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 21, 2017 17:51:08 GMT -5
ADNP, has the right idea. Football is a huge investment and right now it is drowning. This is not a new problem but a solution has got to happen quickly. He is going to have to find a young coach that is going to use HC as a stepping stone, but here for 5 years. My personal opinion is that it's the coaching and recruiting. A good program should make enough money to support other sports at the school, this is becoming a very large financial liability. HC has the facilities now and the education that it should be very attractive with a full scholarship. Hell back in the day (80's) if you got a full boot to HC and you lived in the Northeast it was a no brainer. I have watched all the games and it is a program issue and it has to be uprooted and replanted. At the end of the day these are young men that need to be lead, that is not happening. I will continue to support this team by watching because as a former collegiate football player that means something, you dont quit as a team member or a fan. The players give up most of their summers to play this game you know they just hate losing. Let's pray that this administration finds a suitable coach that can lead a winning program. Don't hold your breath about "this administration". It's led by (1) a President who's not really a Holy Cross guy and whose interest in football and basketball as integral components of the HC identity/brand seems open to question, and (2) an AD who's big on glitter, smoke and mirrors...but not so much when it comes to the only important metric for an AD. To wit, WINNING THE G.D. GAMES. And the problem is by no means limited to the marquee sports programs. As has been oft said "a fish stinks from the head down". Res ipsa loquitor, my friends. Bingo. The athletic department has spent money like drunken sailors since NP's arrival, and the results have not improved from budgets that were likely significantly less than what we're spending now. TPTB should be very cautious before handing over another $1M+ for Pine to put into this next football head coach's contract.
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Post by spenser on Oct 21, 2017 17:52:41 GMT -5
There will,be a load of football recruits at the Georgetown game. A friends son is in the mix.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 21, 2017 18:02:43 GMT -5
Georgetown-Fordham game was very close (Fordham wins 17-9) today. I don't know how to read that for HC next week. Georgetown's QB (a transfer soph ) sounds pretty good and I am sure Georgetown can sniff a chance of victory (in a season where they have been very few and far between for the Hoyas). I guess a thumping of the non-schollie Hoyas would look pretty good to some of the recruits in attendance.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 21, 2017 18:15:52 GMT -5
There will,be a load of football recruits at the Georgetown game. A friends son is in the mix. What type of offers does the recruit have?
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 18:19:37 GMT -5
Yeah you’re right. That receiver was much taller. I watched him, and about 5 other ‘gate receivers who all seemed to be variations on that theme. Hell they keep throwing that same pass in warmups for about 2 minutes straight, over and over.
I may be bias, but when I look at HC as a school, our stadium, facilities, and football history, it’s incomprehensible as to why we should not recruit well within the PL. I’m not saying we should never lose a recruit to another PL school, but we should certainly be able to keep up with the other teams.
And will be ever get to a point on this board where people stop assuming we’ll beat Georgetown? How many times have we lost to them when everyone here thought we’d win? Georgetown will handle us. We’re a broken team.
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Post by hccape on Oct 21, 2017 18:21:06 GMT -5
You are right winning takes care of lots of problems. However, Football is a business, no other program even comes close to the financial commitment that football does. BU dumped their program for that exact reason, it also freed up title IX commitments to other sports. It is something to think about. Most of the other programs at HC have athletes that are paying to play, that math works better. I am worried that they will be in a hole for another 5 years and its just spending more of HC money, I don't think there is a big Radio contract with WEEI to cover the costs of the program.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 18:39:31 GMT -5
I've had similar questions with regard to why it's been so hard to recruit at HC.
Knowing several former Holy Cross coaches as well as numerous guys who played at Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham - It's been made clear that there was very much a stigma regarding playing under Gilmore given his generally strict nature.
This is where a pro-style coach very much helps us with recruiting and team management. Top talent wants to be able to have a good time and have the opportunity to compete without a lot of the drama that comes with an authoritarian coaching style. I believe assistant coaches feel the same way.
Dick Biddle was much more of a player / team management guy than he ever was an authoritarian -- He attracted the talent, let the coaches coach and let the players play. There obviously needs to be discipline within a program, but I believe playing at HC over the years acquired the stigma of being very militaresque and detracted from our ability to recruit.
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Post by JRGNYR on Oct 21, 2017 19:01:35 GMT -5
Wow. Just wow.
I didn’t watch any of the game but that final tells me all I need to know.
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 21, 2017 20:07:36 GMT -5
I've had similar questions with regard to why it's been so hard to recruit at HC. Knowing several former Holy Cross coaches as well as numerous guys who played at Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham - It's been made clear that there was very much a stigma regarding playing under Gilmore given his generally strict nature. This is where a pro-style coach very much helps us with recruiting and team management. Top talent wants to be able to have a good time and have the opportunity to compete without a lot of the drama that comes with an authoritarian coaching style. I believe assistant coaches feel the same way. Dick Biddle was much more of a player / team management guy than he ever was an authoritarian -- He attracted the talent, let the coaches coach and let the players play. There obviously needs to be discipline within a program, but I believe playing at HC over the years acquired the stigma of being very militaresque and detracted from our ability to recruit. Gilmore was clearly the main part of the problem in more ways than one, despite all the talk on this board about what a great human being he apparently is. And he was abetted by College leadership...I'm talking about you two, Boroughs and Pine, that let it happen by retaining Gilmore long past his "use by" date. These two grandees have led a once proud program down into the toilet. There is absolutely no reason for the last two weeks. As I said in an earlier post tonight, the fish stinks from the top down . And we stink. I fear we shall continue to stink until we have new leadership in the Presidency, Board of Trustees, and Athletic Department. Where we are now is a joke and an insult to the many great Crusaders who accomplished praiseworthy feats on Fitton Field over many, many decades, some of which I was privileged to witness. I could start naming names, but you know who they are. We're better than this. Much better. GO CRUSADERS!
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Post by timholycross on Oct 21, 2017 21:12:08 GMT -5
Carmody was sitting with the team at about the 10-20 yard line in front of the cheerleaders. They got up in unison and left early in the second quarter. Practice session, I assume. Had nothing to do with the score, as it was 10-7 when they left.
I was a section over from them. The fumble on first and goal happened right in front of me. Funny thing about that play...Pujals slipped as he got the snap. It messed up the timing of the handoff and the fumble happened. But it was very very close as to whether Pujals knee touched the ground as he got the snap. Would not have been surprised if the whistle blew ending the play.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 21, 2017 21:26:21 GMT -5
I noticed that as well. When they ruled it a fumble and said he was not down, I feared a long afternoon.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 21, 2017 21:39:24 GMT -5
Some other notes from my first "live" game of the year.
The tolling bell (like the Pats) on 3rd down is enough, probably even too much for some folks. Cannot stand the pa guy saying "let's make noise". Totally bush.
Why is the Anderson ROH sign all by itself like it's got a communicable disease?
The fumble was compounded by the Cross punt returner letting the wind aided punt go over his head for a 70 yard kick with no return. If that drive had started at their own 40 instead of the 20, the strategy ending the half would have been totally different, especially after they gained 25 or so yards on the first couple of plays.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 21, 2017 21:45:47 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining the bell I have heard all season. I had no idea what it was all about.
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 21, 2017 23:18:48 GMT -5
Photos from the game...https://foleyphotography.smugmug.com/Football/College-Football/2017-Season/Colgate-at-Holy-Cross
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Post by td128 on Oct 22, 2017 7:06:09 GMT -5
Some other notes from my first "live" game of the year. The tolling bell (like the Pats) on 3rd down is enough, probably even too much for some folks. Cannot stand the pa guy saying "let's make noise". Totally bush. Why is the Anderson ROH sign all by itself like it's got a communicable disease? The fumble was compounded by the Cross punt returner letting the wind aided punt go over his head for a 70 yard kick with no return. If that drive had started at their own 40 instead of the 20, the strategy ending the half would have been totally different, especially after they gained 25 or so yards on the first couple of plays. Speaking of Doc Anderson, those in attendance for the Ring of Honor induction will recall the pride and honor displayed by his son Jerry in his remarks that morning. I am saddened to share with you that Jerry recently passed away. The family shared the following in his obituary: Indeed, Jerry was recently honored to represent the family when his father was inducted into the Holy Cross Ring of Honor for which he was very proud and thankful to the Holy Cross community.Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and all the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 22, 2017 7:21:03 GMT -5
Don't blame ADNP, the problem is in the admissions office. Ask any coach how do recruits get into the other PL schools and get rejected at HC. We need to review our admissions office staff because good recruits end up at other PL schools because they were not accepted here.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 22, 2017 9:44:46 GMT -5
Well now's the time to look at admissions and a bunch of other things that I'm sure could be improved.
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Post by sader1998 on Oct 22, 2017 11:08:11 GMT -5
This team died on 4th and 1.... I don't think they ever recovered from the botched XP that should have won the Dartmouth game. Hangover persisted the next week vs. Laf, leading to the fateful 4th & 1. From there, it was all over.
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Post by rickii on Oct 23, 2017 14:49:09 GMT -5
Don't blame ADNP, the problem is in the admissions office. Ask any coach how do recruits get into the other PL schools and get rejected at HC. We need to review our admissions office staff because good recruits end up at other PL schools because they were not accepted here. Was out of the country but saw the game score. Just finished reading this entire 6 pages and bigfan has id'd where to start IMO.
The barbs aimed at the administration and Pine in all this are way, way off. Where would we be right now if the previous Prez and previous AD were still here Geezes, the ENTIRE athletic landscape at Holy Cross had been TOTALLY ignored for decades. It wasn't until we luckily got this current Prez and hired an honest to goodness AD ( AND had to wait till Brooks passed out of respect ) that the MASSIVE OVERHAUL of athletics was initiated....only about 25 YEARS BEHIND when it should have started !! You think that's easy....like 4-5 years ?? You're dreaming if true.
The LAC is a HUGE multi-faceted project to CATCH-UP on dozens of years of facility improvements ignorance. Fitton Field hadn't had ANYTHING done to improve it until Pine arrived. And it'll be gum and cosmetics ( save for the new field ) until the next Mr. Luth steps forward. Until then it is NOT - REPEAT NOT - an asset in recruiting. FACE IT....Lehigh, Laff, Buck and Colgate all have better overall football venues and amenities.
So the search by Pine WILL NOT be easy at all. Worcester was never a garden spot and, based on what I saw a few weeks ago, it sure isn't much better today.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 23, 2017 14:52:54 GMT -5
We should compare Pine's six years with DR's last six years come this June.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 23, 2017 14:55:51 GMT -5
We should compare Pine's six years with DR's last six years come this June. Come this June Nathan Pine will have been HC AD for 4&1/2 years: "Nathan Pine is in his fourth year as the director of athletics at the College of the Holy Cross. Since being named the school's eighth director of athletics on Dec. 17, 2013"
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 23, 2017 14:56:52 GMT -5
Don't blame ADNP, the problem is in the admissions office. Ask any coach how do recruits get into the other PL schools and get rejected at HC. We need to review our admissions office staff because good recruits end up at other PL schools because they were not accepted here. Was out of the country but saw the game score. Just finished reading this entire 6 pages and bigfan has id'd where to start IMO.
The barbs aimed at the administration and Pine in all this are way, way off. Where would we be right now if the previous Prez and previous AD were still here Geezes, the ENTIRE athletic landscape at Holy Cross had been TOTALLY ignored for decades. It wasn't until we luckily got this current Prez and hired an honest to goodness AD ( AND had to wait till Brooks passed out of respect ) that the MASSIVE OVERHAUL of athletics was initiated....only about 25 YEARS BEHIND when it should have started !! You think that's easy....like 4-5 years ?? You're dreaming if true.
The LAC is a HUGE multi-faceted project to CATCH-UP on dozens of years of facility improvements ignorance. Fitton Field hadn't had ANYTHING done to improve it until Pine arrived. And it'll be gum and cosmetics ( save for the new field ) until the next Mr. Luth steps forward. Until then it is NOT - REPEAT NOT - an asset in recruiting. FACE IT....Lehigh, Laff, Buck and Colgate all have better overall football venues and amenities.
So the search by Pine WILL NOT be easy at all. Worcester was never a garden spot and, based on what I saw a few weeks ago, it sure isn't much better today.
I've sat in Ann McDermott's office with my parents during my official visit. I've roomed with a former player and former Holy Cross Coach. I've played on the offensive line with the current Holy Cross Offensive Line Coach. I've played for former HC coaches who are now coaching at Ivy League Schools. I've played for former HC coaches who have coached at other 1-AA schools. Our Admissions position on athletic recruiting is geared towards doing what they can to keep players out rather than doing what they can to get players in. The current system is absolutely debilitating -- And I believe it was designed to be so. There absolutely has to be a paradigm shift here.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 15:39:37 GMT -5
"Our Admissions position on athletic recruiting is geared towards doing what they can to keep players out rather than doing what they can to get players in." That is very hard to hear, but past actions show that for many years it was true. "Embrace the coming change."
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