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Post by timholycross on Sept 24, 2018 11:05:20 GMT -5
How far off is the Patriot League from NCAA FCS scholarship limits? Not that far off I don't think.
And the schools that redshirt a lot actually have less per class otherwise the redshirts would bring them over the max.
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2018 11:32:51 GMT -5
PL limit is 60 and I believe the NCAA FCS limit is 63. This and the roster limits are big limitations for coaches.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 11:45:43 GMT -5
Right, we are so close to this already, can't we just take the final step forward? I simply see this as a small strategic move (series of moves) with potential huge upside. I don't see how or why we would need to compromise anything as it relates to academic integrity. I actually think a 4.5 year curriculum would help our players to be even better students by allowing them to have a little more study time per course. Villanova, Richmond, W&M, are not exactly safety schools, are they?
I've either played or watched PL football since the beginning and it's really not panning out the way it was intended, first because of a faulty hypothesis that by switching to need based aid, like the Ivies, that we would somehow achieve parity with those schools. What people did not appreciate was the name association that goes along with IL schools that makes it hard to lure kids to HC, or any PL school, when all things are otherwise equal.
Flash forward and the advent of scholarships led many to believe (myself included) that we would achieve parity with the CAA teams, and that we'd leave the IL teams in the dust. However, people failed to appreciate that with the AI, redshirting, and roster and scholarship limits, this would be an impossible task. We've waited long enough - that day is not coming.
So we should all learn from past events, and perhaps it's time for either the league to come together and make some minor rules changes or for individual teams to start making statements by their actions, as Fordham did way back when.
I'm as hopefully as anyone that Chesney and the Luth will allow HC to once again compete consistently at the highest level of FCS/low FBS football, but for Pete's sake, can we help the guy out a little?
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Post by timholycross on Sept 24, 2018 11:46:59 GMT -5
I really don't see 60 being much different than 63. One less person in 3 out of 4 recruiting classes. The roster limit I perhaps do.
More than either of these would be the sticker price to go to any of these fine institutions when it's not a full ride.
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2018 11:55:44 GMT -5
One person can make a big difference (i.e. Dom Randolph). It's not necessarily three players if the scholarships are divided into partials. The limit of 90 on the roster is a big problem. Limits depth severely.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 12:03:27 GMT -5
The point of a roster limit is what again?
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 24, 2018 12:05:04 GMT -5
Thankfully, HC continues to place its emphasis on academics and not on athletics. The deemphasis on sports and limiting our athletics to a smaller, more academic profile was one of the reasons why I chose HC over some excellent schools.(Ivy,too) many years ago. Currently, we derive a great benefit from our association with the PL and by continuing our long association with the Ivies. As far back as the mi-1950's HC announced a standard similar to the Ivies, namely that our student-athletes are academically representative of the HC student body. Academics first, athletics second. Period! IMHO it would make no sense to go "rogue" and lower our academic profile. Win or lose on the field of play , HC always comes out the winner as a fine academic school. I for one am very proud of my association with HC. And I do agree with those who counsel patience as we continue to compete against some of the finest academic institutions in America. I would hope and expect that we all would share a deep sense of pride in Holy Cross. Love HC "LETS WIN!" don't look now but we do. - HC has one of the highest graduation rates for our student/athletes. - some of our players are named to the PL all academic team each year against very good competition. -HC football program is not a training ground for NFL hopefuls. It's actually a college sport.
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Post by trimster on Sept 24, 2018 12:15:54 GMT -5
Thankfully, HC continues to place its emphasis on academics and not on athletics. The deemphasis on sports and limiting our athletics to a smaller, more academic profile was one of the reasons why I chose HC over some excellent schools.(Ivy,too) many years ago. Currently, we derive a great benefit from our association with the PL and by continuing our long association with the Ivies. As far back as the mi-1950's HC announced a standard similar to the Ivies, namely that our student-athletes are academically representative of the HC student body. Academics first, athletics second. Period! IMHO it would make no sense to go "rogue" and lower our academic profile. Win or lose on the field of play , HC always comes out the winner as a fine academic school. I for one am very proud of my association with HC. And I do agree with those who counsel patience as we continue to compete against some of the finest academic institutions in America. I would hope and expect that we all would share a deep sense of pride in Holy Cross. Love HC Academics and athletics aren't mutually exclusive and for all of the talk about being judged by the company you keep, our academic ranking has slipped a bit in the last 20 years. I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards. The college's administration and BOTs calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere.
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2018 12:48:04 GMT -5
Moose...if I recall my history correctly the last Academic All-American at HC was pre-Patriot League. HC's graduation rate, despite playing FBS schools, will always be among the highest.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 24, 2018 13:02:08 GMT -5
Moose...if I recall my history correctly the last Academic All-American at HC was pre-Patriot League. HC's graduation rate, despite playing FBS schools, will always be among the highest. i assume you are correct that " the last Academic All-American at HC was pre-Patriot League." i am referring to the PL all academic team that is named each year. Hc usually gets its share of players named to that team which is a "WIN" in my book.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 13:07:01 GMT -5
You need to earn a certain GPA in-season and actually play a minimum amount ("starter or key reserve" as I recall) to earn All-PL Academic honors. It's pretty close to the same requirement as being on the Dean's List. What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 24, 2018 13:11:36 GMT -5
PL limit is 60 and I believe the NCAA FCS limit is 63. This and the roster limits are big limitations for coaches. Those are the values for full scollie equivalents. I believe the PL has the same limit as FCS on the total number of players who can receive fin aid, which is 85. The 85 includes partial scollies. The PL imposes a total roster limit of 90. The difference between 60 and 63 means that the PL coaches have about $200,000 less for fin aid than a school such as Villanova. A school such as HC would spend about $3,900,000 on financial aid for football, so the 'missing;' $200,000 is about five percent. The larger issue does not stem from the difference between 60 and 63, but the value of a half scollie at a private university compared to a public. The parents of a recruit at UNH on a half scollie would pay perhaps half of what those same parents would pay if their son received a half scollie at HC. Which is why it may be chasing fool's gold to join a conference most of whose members are public universities, --- because their football programs are significantly cheaper. Athletically-related financial aid / male athletes only (in thousands)Colgate $7150 Univ of Texas at Austin $6672 Holy Cross $6095 Lafayette $5312 Univ of Maine, Orono $3780 Loyola MD $2870
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 24, 2018 13:17:15 GMT -5
Thankfully, HC continues to place its emphasis on academics and not on athletics. The deemphasis on sports and limiting our athletics to a smaller, more academic profile was one of the reasons why I chose HC over some excellent schools.(Ivy,too) many years ago. Currently, we derive a great benefit from our association with the PL and by continuing our long association with the Ivies. As far back as the mi-1950's HC announced a standard similar to the Ivies, namely that our student-athletes are academically representative of the HC student body. Academics first, athletics second. Period! IMHO it would make no sense to go "rogue" and lower our academic profile. Win or lose on the field of play , HC always comes out the winner as a fine academic school. I for one am very proud of my association with HC. And I do agree with those who counsel patience as we continue to compete against some of the finest academic institutions in America. I would hope and expect that we all would share a deep sense of pride in Holy Cross. Love HC Academics and athletics aren't mutually exclusive and for all of the talk about being judged by the company you keep, our academic ranking has slipped a bit in the last 20 years. I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards. The college's administration and BOTs calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere. "I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards."depending on how you define "...compete at a high level athletically..." i.e v BC, Syracuse? that is what will happen. "The college's administration and BOTs* calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere."the alumni has a big say in what happens esp on the athletic field since alumni financial support is crucial. *BOT???
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 24, 2018 13:25:20 GMT -5
You need to earn a certain GPA in-season and actually play a minimum amount ("starter or key reserve" as I recall) to earn All-PL Academic honors. It's pretty close to the same requirement as being on the Dean's List. What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting? What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting?
absolutely nothing. it has to do with how to define "WIN" for the HC football program.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 13:37:54 GMT -5
You need to earn a certain GPA in-season and actually play a minimum amount ("starter or key reserve" as I recall) to earn All-PL Academic honors. It's pretty close to the same requirement as being on the Dean's List. What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting? What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting?
absolutely nothing. it has to do with how to define "WIN" for the HC football program. I don't know, Moose, you're not selling me on any point here. HC will attract the kind of guys that perform academically regardless of the changes we're discussing. If we join the CAA or some other league we'll still have 10-15 or more football players earning all academic honors no matter what. I appreciate your sentiment, but if you think that by offering students an extra semester and a few more equivalencies, etc., HC will be entering some dark realm of sleaze and corruption, well that's a bit paranoid.
Respectfully, Joe
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2018 13:52:55 GMT -5
Joe...can't you remember all of the corruption and scandals at UNH and UMaine because of redshirting and a few more scholarships...............
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 14:06:35 GMT -5
HC is slowly figuring out who it wants to be as a football school. My impression is that it wishes to see its football team compete annually with the best in the league, regularly win against the Ivies, do fairly well against the CAA and, in good years, make trips a few rounds into the NCAA playoffs and also maybe hang with whatever BCS school it's playing. Some would say these are lofty goals, others would say they are a bare minimum. For me personally, they are solid and realistic, and I do believe they can be achieved while maintaining a tradition of academic excellence and player success after graduation. A great first step was hiring an enthusiastic, high energy coach, and improving our facilities tremendously. HC now needs to re-evaluate the second line of issues we're discussing in this thread so that the playing field is not just leveled, but tips in our favor. Why not?
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 24, 2018 14:14:58 GMT -5
What does this have to do with roster limits and red-shirting?
absolutely nothing. it has to do with how to define "WIN" for the HC football program. I don't know, Moose, you're not selling me on any point here. HC will attract the kind of guys that perform academically regardless of the changes we're discussing. If we join the CAA or some other league we'll still have 10-15 or more football players earning all academic honors no matter what. I appreciate your sentiment, but if you think that by offering students an extra semester and a few more equivalencies, etc., HC will be entering some dark realm of sleaze and corruption, well that's a bit paranoid.
Respectfully, aJoe
to actually compete v BC, Syracuse, et al in football HC will need a major restructure of its football program (primarily $$$) but also including lowering academic standards not merely "offering students an extra semester and a few more equivalencies, etc.". Assuming we have a football program that can compete on the field v BC, Syracuse, et al then who in the PL, Ivy League, etc. will want to play us? If we do not have a football program that can compete on the field v BC, Syracuse, et al then we should not play them simply for the sake of coaches and players who just want a chance to win! pax,
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2018 14:24:13 GMT -5
I agree that academics and athletics are not mutually exclusive at HC. Check out my earlier referral to our policy that our student- athletes are to be academically representative of the student body. However, any attempt to lower the academic profile of our student- athletes by lowering standards of admission for student- athletes is a mistake.(The AI is an attempt to have student-athletes who are academically representative. Lower or jettison the AI serves what purpose other than to lower admission standards for our student-athletes?) Red shirting as a matter of course or extending the normal time for student-athletes to graduate to 4.5 years is in my view emphasizing athletics at the expense of academics. Student-athletes should not be receiving this type of special treatment which has the effect of creating a group separate from the rest of the student body. I believe that we should continue to admit students who fall within the academic spectrum of the new admits and offer no special jock classes/majors as of necessity for lower academic profile student-athletes as is done at some other "prestigious" schools. In my view it all comes down to institutional integrity. HC is not a football school! It is a high quality college that also plays football.(The obvious difference in emphasis is exactly the point I have been trying to make.) I do understand the frustration with our teams but I believe that we can and will have more successful teams in the future and continue to enroll high academic quality student-athletes. Be patient. Love HC Many 'regular' students take more than four years to graduate from college. It's not a bad or evil thing. Football players and other student-athletes sacrifice a lot of time and sweat equity to represent the school they play for. An extra semester will in no way tarnish the reputation of Holy Cross or other PL colleges. Twenty, thirty, forty years ago the time commitment was significantly less on the players.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 24, 2018 14:52:00 GMT -5
While it is certainly possible for a Northeast Catholic school to be successful in sports and academics (Boston College and Villanova come to mind) it is rather difficult.
While folks have noted it is disappointing for the PL to be languishing far behind CAA and Ivy in football, am I the only one who sees we are currently ranked behind the NEC?
(From RGS318) Here are the combined ranks for FCS football conferences: 1 Missouri Valley 26.54 2 Colonial 30.41 3 Big Sky 42.39 4 Ivy League 48.40 5 Southern 52.19 6 FCS Indep 56.70 7 Southland 60.35 8 OH Valley 65.47 9 Big South 73.97 10 Northeast 81.41 11 Patriot League 85.03 12 Mid-Eastern A 85.87 13 Southwestern AC 94.19 14 Pioneer 98.92
IMHO opinion the only way for HC to improve significantly in football is to go CAA - plenty of schools generally at (or above) HC's level of academics in that conference. Something along the lines of what Joe wrote, above. (I know many different things would have to be worked out for this to come about.)
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 15:20:29 GMT -5
". . . any attempt to lower the academic profile of our student- athletes by lowering standards of admission for student- athletes is a mistake." - I don't believe eliminating AI (a numerical formula for predicting academic success) will necessarily result in compromised academic integrity. There are many ways to assess intelligence and predict academic success far better than an AI, many of which most schools use for admissions not for only athletes, but "civilian" students as well.
"Red shirting as a matter of course or extending the normal time for student-athletes to graduate to 4.5 years is in my view emphasizing athletics at the expense of academics." - Absolutely 180 degrees wrong. This is about emphasizing academics, not athletics. And I don't think giving a student athlete engaged in something as onerous and time consuming as D1 football an extra semester over which to spread his classes and be more enriched can be considered special treatment, at least to any meaningful extent, especially with the rigor of HC.
"Many 'regular' students take more than four years to graduate from college. It's not a bad or evil thing. Football players and other student-athletes sacrifice a lot of time and sweat equity to represent the school they play for. An extra semester will in no way tarnish the reputation of Holy Cross or other PL colleges. Twenty, thirty, forty years ago the time commitment was significantly less on the players." -Correct.
"Special jock classes/majors . . ." I won't even go there. You went to HC, right? It's the same as it was then, no jock classes. I tried to find one for 4 years and failed.
"Be patient."
Your mistaking passion and concern for impatience. Impatience is also a really hard thing to glean from posts on a message board. "Joe, Respectfully. Is HC "figuring out who it wants to be...?" or is the description you provide your view as to what HC football should be?" -Based on what I've learned through over two decades as an active football alum working closely with players and influential people on the hill and in the alumni community, trust me that my vision is the same as HC's vision.
"Thankfully, we can share our differing views with mutual respect and in good spirit." -Agree.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 24, 2018 15:41:32 GMT -5
The PL is actually below the MEAC, above only the SWAC and non-scholarship Pioneer League in the most current Massey ratings....abysmal.
Most here know my stance on HC in the PL overall...it has hurt the school both academically and athletically imo.
Will we evah leave? Doubtful but it does seem kind of ridiculous to build a $95MM athletic facility and have our premier programs, football and basketball, lag behind the schools it does in both sports currently.
Ideally we would have a Villanova-like situation: CAA FB/BE Hoop but I'd be sanguine with a Richmond set-up of CAA FB/A-10 Hoop.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 24, 2018 16:49:01 GMT -5
We've had this conversation before. Many times.
Comparing how much the IL, three PL schools, and three private CAA schools spent on football in 2016-17. The IL schools were each assumed to spend the equivalent of $4.0M on financial aid, or about 63 scollies.
Columbia $8.1 *Columbia's and Fordham's costs are outliers because of NYC cost of living. Yale $7.3 Dartmouth $7.2 Princeton $7.2 Fordham $7.1 * Harvard $6.9 Penn $6.9 Richmond $6.7 Villanova $6.7 Brown $6.4 Cornell $6.2 HC $6.2 # HC's expenses include Yankee Stadium Colgate $5.9 Elon $5.4
As the IL has a 10 game schedule, no post-season, and buses to nearly all games, what explains the difference in IL spending and the six non-IL teams? My guess is coaches' salaries.
A further note: Supposedly, some of Murphy's compensation (like Amaker's) is off-the books, and is not included above.. This compensation is paid by alumni in the equivalent of a personal services contract. Murphy is the only IL coach with that sort of compensation that I have seen references to, there could be others.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 24, 2018 17:38:07 GMT -5
Villanova? Are we so naive to think that Villanova has won an NBA, oops, NCAA basketball championship and compete successfully for CAA//National standing in f-ball and Villanova has the academics for all its students on the same level as does HC? Get real. In my opinion, no way. for all these big-time programs. IMHO these schools do not have the integrity of HC and are not role models for HC. LoveHC I don't entirely disagree. I suppose the same goes for Notre Dame, Boston College, and Georgetown (hoops). I think they take in athletes who they think will succeed but may not have equivalent scores/grades/rank to non-athletes. I would assume Stanford, Northwestern, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, etc. do the same. I don't have a serious problem with that. These schools do manage to preserve strong academic reputations. I'd say our academic reputation (and football) was stronger in the 80's (pre PL) without an A.I.
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Post by trimster on Sept 24, 2018 20:05:54 GMT -5
Academics and athletics aren't mutually exclusive and for all of the talk about being judged by the company you keep, our academic ranking has slipped a bit in the last 20 years. I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards. The college's administration and BOTs calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere. "I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards."depending on how you define "...compete at a high level athletically..." i.e v BC, Syracuse? that is what will happen. "The college's administration and BOTs* calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere."the alumni has a big say in what happens esp on the athletic field since alumni financial support is crucial. *BOT??? BOT = Board of Trustees. If the Alumni had much say in athletic matters as you think, I doubt Holy Cross would have ever joined the Patriot League.
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