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Post by hcpride on Sept 23, 2018 8:41:54 GMT -5
At what point did the Dartmouth coaches tell their players to stop trying? This "call off the dogs" argument only serves to insult the efforts of our team and makes it appear that Dartmouth was not very deep in talent. BTW, I did watch the game (tough as it was in the first half) and it was not clear that Dartmouth "called off the dogs." Do I count as "anyone? Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"? Nobody is suggesting the Dartmouth coach told his kids to stop trying. (strawman alert). (Are your aware BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter?)
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Post by deep Purple on Sept 23, 2018 8:50:24 GMT -5
As I read everybody's opinions this morning on the loss, it strikes me that this is all about the Jimmys and Joes not the X's and O's.. It's both.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 23, 2018 9:00:52 GMT -5
We should have played the same guys that we used in the Yale game--those guys were pretty good
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 23, 2018 9:15:26 GMT -5
At what point did the Dartmouth coaches tell their players to stop trying? This "call off the dogs" argument only serves to insult the efforts of our team and makes it appear that Dartmouth was not very deep in talent. BTW, I did watch the game (tough as it was in the first half) and it was not clear that Dartmouth "called off the dogs." Do I count as "anyone? Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"? Nobody is suggesting the Dartmouth coach told his kids to stop trying. (strawman alert). (Are your aware BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter?) Yes, unless, of course, those second string players have been used throughout the game. You are aware of that I am sure. OK Yes, but that was by not playing any of the starters again at such an early point in the game. Are you aware that the "calling of the dogs" point serves only to diminish any accomplishment of the HC players? Are you aware that you avoided answering my question about the liberal use of "anyone?"
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Post by hcpride on Sept 23, 2018 9:53:47 GMT -5
Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"? Nobody is suggesting the Dartmouth coach told his kids to stop trying. (strawman alert). (Are your aware BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter?) Yes, unless, of course, those second string players have been used throughout the game. You are aware of that I am sure. OK Yes, but that was by not playing any of the starters again at such an early point in the game. Are you aware that the "calling of the dogs" point serves only to diminish any accomplishment of the HC players? Are you aware that you avoided answering my question about the liberal use of "anyone?" LOL (reread "Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"?) I gather now that you know the oft-used football expression "calling off the dogs" and that you now realize it does not mean the coach tells the kids to stop trying. (strawman gone). You now seem to believe that calling off the dogs diminishes accomplishments. That's your take on it. I can't imagine someone who was watching the 4th quarter game did not realize that Dartmouth - up very comfortably 34-0 - had called off the dogs and liberally substituted. We scored two times. (It would be completely normal to call off the dogs at that point...we will do the same when the shoe is on the other foot.) . I suppose it is possible. Did you notice BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter of that game (I'm thinking at this point you may not be watching HC's opponents during football games)?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 23, 2018 9:57:36 GMT -5
RGS, if you actually believe we scored those two touchdowns thanks to in-game adjustments, rather than Dartmouth putting in their backups and taking their foot off the pedal, then I have a bridge to sell you.
These were garbage time scores by us. Just the facts.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 23, 2018 10:02:53 GMT -5
Yes, unless, of course, those second string players have been used throughout the game. You are aware of that I am sure. OK Yes, but that was by not playing any of the starters again at such an early point in the game. Are you aware that the "calling of the dogs" point serves only to diminish any accomplishment of the HC players? Are you aware that you avoided answering my question about the liberal use of "anyone?" LOL (reread "Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"?) I gather now that you know the oft-used football expression "calling off the dogs" and that you now realize it does not mean the coach tells the kids to stop trying. (strawman gone). You now seem to believe that calling off the dogs diminishes accomplishments. That's your take on it. I can't imagine someone who was watching the 4th quarter game did not realize that Dartmouth - up very comfortably 34-0 - had called off the dogs and liberally substituted. We scored two times. (It would be completely normal to call off the dogs at that point...we will do the same when the shoe is on the other foot.) . I suppose it is possible. Did you notice BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter of that game (I'm thinking at this point you may not be watching HC's opponents during football games)? Cute response. I understand your opinion (and lack of some imagination?). Did you actually read my post about BC (above)? That seems to make your last question unnecessary, but I guess you were on a roll.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 23, 2018 10:04:28 GMT -5
LOL (reread "Are you aware that sending in 2nd and 3rd stringers when comfortably ahead is 'calling off the dogs"?) I gather now that you know the oft-used football expression "calling off the dogs" and that you now realize it does not mean the coach tells the kids to stop trying. (strawman gone). You now seem to believe that calling off the dogs diminishes accomplishments. That's your take on it. I can't imagine someone who was watching the 4th quarter game did not realize that Dartmouth - up very comfortably 34-0 - had called off the dogs and liberally substituted. We scored two times. (It would be completely normal to call off the dogs at that point...we will do the same when the shoe is on the other foot.) . I suppose it is possible. Did you notice BC called off the dogs in the 1st quarter of that game (I'm thinking at this point you may not be watching HC's opponents during football games)? Cute response. I understand your opinion (and lack of some imagination?). Did you actually read my post about BC (above)? That seems to make your last question unnecessary, but I guess you were on a roll. PS: Isn't "sending in" a second stringer also called substituting? I would have thought you were aware of that, since Dartmouth did that throughout the first half as well as the second.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 23, 2018 10:07:48 GMT -5
RGS, if you actually believe we scored those two touchdowns thanks to in-game adjustments, rather than Dartmouth putting in their backups and taking their foot off the pedal, then I have a bridge to sell you. These were garbage time scores by us. Just the facts. "a bridge to sell you"? taking their foot off the pedal? Must every argument you use include shopworn phrases like that? Do you really believe you actually own a bridge? Do you really try to commit fraud by selling things you do not own? Or do you simply try to make opposing points of view look simplistic and childish by using closed rhetorical questions?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 23, 2018 10:09:51 GMT -5
Comparing the use of the AI in the IL and the PL for football. Minimum AI score below which a recruited athlete may not admitted to play footballIL 176, (it was 171 until about 6-7 years ago.) PL 168 A student with a 3.0 GPA and 1150 on V/M on SATs would have about a 176 AI. Bands. Both leagues use bands in football to restrict loading rosters with athletes with low AI scores.The four bands are > within one standard deviation of the school-wide AI > between one and two standard deviations > between two and two and one half standard deviations > between two and a a half standard deviations and the floor. In a normal distribution, > 68 percent of the students (and athletes) fall within one standard deviation of the mean > 95 percent fall within two standard deviations > 97.1 percent fall within two and a half standard distributions (approximate) > 99.7 percent fall within three standard deviations For an HYP school, the school-wide AI is estimated to be between 220-225 One standard deviation below might be to an AI score of 208 (This reflects guesstimates) Two standard deviations might be between 193 and 208. Two and a half standard deviations might be 185 and 193 Low low band could be between 185 and the IL floor of 176. Seven years ago, Bagnoli when he coached Penn said he had 8 slots in the highest band, 12 in the next highest, eight in the low band, and two in the low low band. HYP would have the highest school-wide AIs. Again from seven years ago, www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/sports/before-athletic-recruiting-in-the-ivy-league-some-math.htmlFor the PL the school-wide AI for HC is probably 198-200. Assuming some compression within the bands, top band for Hc might be between 188-200, next highest band would be between 176 and 188, and low band would be between 176 and PL floor of 168. Within the PL for football, Georgetown easily has the highest school-wide AI, followed by Colgate. Then probably Lehigh. HC, Bucknell, and Lafayette are bunched, with Fordham lowest, but close behind. The average American college student supposedly has an AI of 150. Sone years ago, Columbia football was given relief with respect to the low bands to make Columbia more competitive. It didn't help.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 23, 2018 10:13:24 GMT -5
Thanks for that post, Pak. It helped with my limited understanding of AI.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 23, 2018 10:14:43 GMT -5
Dartmouth beat us soundly--I'm not arguing with that. However, while Dartmouth did put in its second or third team, HC did give some reserves a chance as well. Tate Beachley scored the first touchdown of his career--very nice chance for him to show what he can do, and Jordan Montgomery, not a starter, caught some late passes as well.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 23, 2018 10:57:29 GMT -5
Another way to look at it: about a third of the team was in high school last year, and they have played 1) a FBS team ranked in the top 25 (though not for long), 2) the preseason pick for PL champ, 3) the preseason Ivy pick, and 4) a top tier Ivy team. I understand we are living in an age of immediate gratification/results, but, I don't know, seems like we might want to see how they bounce back next week before getting too carried away. my new mantra: All we are saying is give Coach Chesney a chance All we are saying is give Coach Chesney a chance (apologies to John Lennon)
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 23, 2018 11:00:41 GMT -5
OK, we lost and we lost big, which surprised some of us who wear purple-hued glasses as, speaking for myself, looked too closely at last year's game at Hanover that could and should have been a win and while fully cognizant of losing Peter Pujals at QB, felt that this year's team was confident (after Yale comeback) and motivated (payback for the loss last year) coupled with a team who while loaded with freshmen and a new coach, those were more highly recruited freshmen and a charismatic proven-winner head coach. Some posters were certainly more objective - "bet with your head, not your heart" - and some posters just think on any give Saturday, or Friday night, Patriot League teams in general stink and Holy Cross specifically stinks. I find it both interesting and amusing that the guy who has the best attitude is someone who never spent a day in a Holy Cross classroom. This gentleman, and I use the term advisedly, bleeds purple; screams his lungs out at the games; gets accosted by opposing fans - young Ivy League ladies usually ; but always posts cogent, reasonable, logical and measured things on Crossports like this: It is an honor to watch any Holy Cross sporting event with Non Alum Dave or be a recipient of his thoughts during and afterwards.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 23, 2018 11:50:36 GMT -5
I can't pay you the usual fee, sader, but the check IS in the mail.😁
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Post by deep Purple on Sept 23, 2018 16:23:25 GMT -5
HC will be fine. There is very little upper class talent on the team. Might get worse next year before it gets better. The lack of upper class talent is most noticeable. The jr class has 16 players and I can't imagine anything close to 15 scholarships were allotted for that group. Five or six play consistently or seem capable of playing at this level. Did they cut equivalencies that year?
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Post by timholycross on Sept 23, 2018 20:05:42 GMT -5
That was probably the year Pine should have made a change.
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Post by nhteamer on Sept 24, 2018 6:42:19 GMT -5
boy, Yale must feel stupid.
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Post by JRGNYR on Sept 24, 2018 8:09:46 GMT -5
If Coach Chesney is astute, he will be looking for a QB currently playing at a FBS level program looking to transfer and will be eligible for the 2019 season. But will admissions be on board?
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Post by JRGNYR on Sept 24, 2018 8:15:22 GMT -5
Look at how the PL got beat today, the league stinks. Not sure what the league expects. Give schollies but not the full compliment. Allow redshirting but not non-medical. Have academic restrictions as tough or to tougher than the Ivy League. I’ve said it many times - in for a penny, in for a pound. No half measures will work. I’d love to see HC be part of a CAA reshuffle (north division) or drum up a new league. Maine UNH HC Villanova Fordham or Delaware Stony Brook Rhode Island Albany A real North East take-the-bus smash mouth League. That’s the conference HC belongs in. Full schollie, redshirting, no AI, solid FCS football. OOC schedule: BC or Army UMass or UConn Any PL school 2 CAA south schools No more Ivies. Let’s move on. Move on. That's all on the Presidents.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 24, 2018 8:48:34 GMT -5
HC will be fine. There is very little upper class talent on the team. Might get worse next year before it gets better. The lack of upper class talent is most noticeable. The jr class has 16 players and I can't imagine anything close to 15 scholarships were allotted for that group. Five or six play consistently or seem capable of playing at this level. Did they cut equivalencies that year? Imbalances occur. Chesney this year cannot load up on recruits like he did last year (where the recruit numbers were more for a roster capped at 120. With respect to Gilmore's recruiting three years ago, one would have to re-examine how many fifth year seniors were on the roster in 2016, and see whether that reduced the number of recruits.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 8:53:44 GMT -5
Regardless of a conference shift, can't we throw down the gauntlet and just start giving more schollies, red-shirting, and loosening the AI without the consent of the PL presidents, just our own president? Similar to when Fordham went rouge and started giving schollies, the only difference might be that we can no longer get the at large playoff bid until the league eventually follows suit, if they ever do. By that time we may be desirable to a better, more competitive conference. The PL is not doing well as a football conference. On the one hand HC wants to be high level FCS and play BCS teams, and is making great strides in some areas, but on the other hand we are still making it harder than it needs to make this endeavor successful in a reasonable time frame.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 24, 2018 8:59:39 GMT -5
Before we go overboard here (HC and PL do not have tighter academic requirements than IL per multiple Phreek posts), we are in an academic first league. That is simply not going to change.
Have a little patience and let’s see how Coach Chesney can do in the next 2-3 years. He seems to be getting some very good quality recruits but he’s just started.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 24, 2018 9:23:45 GMT -5
Are you really asking CROSSPORTS posters to have patience? I admire your optimism. I agree that this is a 2-3 year process before we see the sort of consistent quality we hope for in HC play.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2018 10:29:12 GMT -5
The deemphasis on sports and limiting our athletics to a smaller, more academic profile was one of the reasons why I chose HC over some excellent schools.(Ivy,too) many years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all did. Unfortunately as the last few decades in the PL taught us, there is only one Ivy League. At some point in the past, there was no AI - and we still had tremendously bright men play football at HC.
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