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Post by hc87 on Sept 24, 2018 21:16:28 GMT -5
Villanova? Are we so naive to think that Villanova has won an NBA, oops, NCAA basketball championship and compete successfully for CAA//National standing in f-ball and Villanova has the academics for all its students on the same level as does HC? Get real. In my opinion no way any of these big-time programs are the equal of HC in those important areas that count. IMHO these schools do not have the integrity of HC and are not role models for HC. Quite simply these schools are not in the same class as HC. HC is known for its institutional integrity. A degree from Holy Cross means a lot. Furthermore in professional circles - medical, legal, corporate, et.al. - none of these schools have the same high standing as does Holy Cross. There is an immense amount of respect for Holy Cross in the educated/professional elite of this country. HC has an enviable level of respect, matched by very few schools and certainly not matched by Villanova, BC or even ND. Don't you alums see what we have? Don't squander it, cheapen our degree in pursuit of athletic success. Peace and fellowship to all. LoveHC A bit hyperbolic mm....Holy Cross has lost some academic branding/standing in the last 25-30 years...Villanova (in terms of perception anyway) is very much our academic peer....as is Richmond...2 schools that play CAA football and very high-level D1 hoop.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 25, 2018 1:14:37 GMT -5
"I never bought the argument if HC tried to compete at a high level athletically, it would have to lower its academic standards."depending on how you define "...compete at a high level athletically..." i.e v BC, Syracuse? that is what will happen. "The college's administration and BOTs* calls the shots on what happens on Mount Saint James, not a league office somewhere."the alumni has a big say in what happens esp on the athletic field since alumni financial support is crucial. *BOT??? BOT = Board of Trustees. If the Alumni had much say in athletic matters as you think, I doubt Holy Cross would have ever joined the Patriot League. Spring, 1970 newly appointed President of Holy Cross John Brooks, S.J. announces that athletic scholarships will no longer be offered to incoming students. The outcry from the alumni was so strong that Fr Brooks was forced to reinstate athletic scholarships within 1-2 mos of his announcement. (Of course, Fr Brooks got his way several years later when the school dropped athletic scholarships.) Today, HC continues to rely heavily on alumni financial support. Was there any alumni opposition when HC announced that it was going to join the Patriot League?
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Post by timholycross on Sept 25, 2018 5:14:22 GMT -5
BOT = Board of Trustees. If the Alumni had much say in athletic matters as you think, I doubt Holy Cross would have ever joined the Patriot League. Spring, 1970 newly appointed President of Holy Cross John Brooks, S.J. announces that athletic scholarships will no longer be offered to incoming students. The outcry from the alumni was so strong that Fr Brooks was forced to reinstate athletic scholarships within 1-2 mos of his announcement. (Of course, Fr Brooks got his way several years later when the school dropped athletic scholarships.) Today, HC continues to rely heavily on alumni financial support. Was there any alumni opposition when HC announced that it was going to join the Patriot League? Are you asking that question seriously? Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2018 5:56:41 GMT -5
hc87. Hyperbolic, perhaps. I know that so many (not necessarily you) are tied into various rankings but I was referring to HC's institutional integrity and the perception of HC among various professionals. In my experience the opinion of HC among professionals remains quite high and has not been encumbered by a perception that HC makes academic compromises for athletics as do the aforementioned schools. My Ivy friends refer to HC and other PL schools as near Ivy due to their perception of the high standards and integrity of HC and the other PL schools. I have not heard the same about Villanova and the other CAA schools. Again, this is my experience. I would hope and expect that HC's policy that our student-athletes are academically representative of the student body remains in place. I bid you peace. LoveHC I have to disagree with you there. The perception of HC with the folks I know is high, but not at the level it once was. Oddly enough, a large swath of under-forty folks in the business world (NYC) are not at all familiar with HC (I don't know if they once were). I can't speak to Boston or Worcester although I would imagine it is different. When I hear near-Ivy (and it is rare to hear that) it is from somebody describing some NESCACs and a few other schools. When I hear fake Ivy it is in clear reference to Cornell.
I am unfamiliar with serious dings to the academic reputation of places like BC, Villanova, Georgetown (hoops), Notre Dame, Northwestern, Stanford, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, etc. who admit recruited student athletes who they believe will be successful but whose academic credentials out of high school may or may not be equivalent to all (or any) of their non-recruited counterparts. I am assuming the same could be said of their URM v non-URM admissions. IMHO their academic reputations are superior to ours.
(At the same time I really don't know if there has been a substantial number of CAA-quality football recruits recently who want to come to HC (w/schollie) and are capable of succeeding academically but have been torpedoed by admissions. So this may be a moot point.)
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 25, 2018 7:00:05 GMT -5
I am sitting at my desk in my classroom waiting for the day to start and have to offer a quick comment. From the standpoint of an ISL prep school, Holy Cross is still held in high regard academically. Many of our students and student athletes attend HC each year. Anecdotally, however, unless one of our football, hockey, or lax players has an offer from HC, most students are also looking at what they consider "peer" colleges such as Villanova, Notre Dame, and BC. We do have a few students every year go to Richmond and the research triangle schools in NC.
(2017/2018) Matriculation: Holy Cross 1/8 Villanova 5/1 Boston Coll. 2/9 Georgetown 2/1 Notre Dame 3/6 Harvard 4/2 Dartmouth 3/0
D1 Athletes: HC (2) lacrosse Richmond (1) baseball Wake Forest (2) baseball, tennis PC (1) lacrosse UConn (1) football Maryland (1) lacrosse
2017: Northwestern (1) football Union (1) football Dartmouth (2) lacrosse Harvard (4) baseball, lacrosse, hockey Villanova (1) football BC (1) football Cornell (1) lacrosse Northeastern (1) soccer
Of my post, which is a relatively small sample size of student athletes in New England (although many political polls in the media use deceptively small samples), I am not certain which football players also received offers from HC. I know of a couple current students who have received offers. In short, I think that while HC's reputation is still quite strong across the board, among athletes, it is not much different than Nova, BC, and other FCS schools. Just my observation.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2018 8:01:34 GMT -5
Eighteen seniors on Villanova's 2018 roster. Their major.
Communications Liberal Arts Political Science NPT Political Science LPT Economics (QB) Communications Sociology Economics Economics LPT Finance & Business Administration NPT Biology NPT Economics NPT Criminology Economics Communications Communications Finance and Accounting Political Science
NPT / LPT means no / little playing time the previous three years.
Six of the 12 with significant playing times have majors not offered by HC. Counted liberal arts as a HC major, did not count finance as a HC major. ___________________________ Richmond does not list majors for their roster. __________________________ Only six seniors on the W&M roster, their majors: Kinesiology Kinesiology Government Economics Kinesiology (5th year senior) Accounting
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 25, 2018 8:17:28 GMT -5
No wonder William & Mary is struggling ---- only 6 seniors on the team
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Post by gks on Sept 25, 2018 8:33:20 GMT -5
Eighteen seniors on Villanova's 2018 roster. Their major. Communications Liberal Arts Political Science NPT Political Science LPT Economics (QB) Communications Sociology Economics Economics LPT Finance & Business Administration NPT Biology NPT Economics NPT Criminology Economics Communications Communications Finance and Accounting Political Science NPT / LPT means no / little playing time the previous three years. Six of the 12 with significant playing times have majors not offered by HC. Counted liberal arts as a HC major, did not count finance as a HC major. ___________________________ Richmond does not list majors for their roster. __________________________ Only six seniors on the W&M roster, their majors: Kinesiology Kinesiology Government Economics Kinesiology (5th year senior) Accounting These posts are ridiculous. You have no idea what career path any of these kids wants to pursue. Maybe they want to be a cop. Maybe they want to be a broadcaster. Maybe they want to get into politics. Every time you or someone else posts something like this the stench of elitism is loud and clear. Believe me...you can slide your way through any college by doing the minimum. Stop making HC athletes sound like martyrs because of their Atlas-like class schedule. Do some kids play the system? Sure. But most graduate and go on to happy and successful lives. You paint kids at every other school to be dummies because they major in Criminology. And alums wonder why Worcester and CMass has turned their back on the college....
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Post by joe on Sept 25, 2018 8:41:43 GMT -5
GKS - agreed.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 25, 2018 8:53:02 GMT -5
While there is nothing wrong with pursuing any of those careers or any of those majors, Holy Cross is not a quasi-technical school and looks to help develop critical thinking skills, a moral foundation, a desire to be “other directed,” that serves future leaders in the community in the fields of medical, legal, government, business.
Sure, one can game the system in any college or university but it is a lot harder at Holy Cross than most. If that’s elitist, so be it.
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Post by gks on Sept 25, 2018 9:05:21 GMT -5
Going to Holy Cross is not elitist. It's the attitude towards other colleges and using it as an excuse that is.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 25, 2018 9:14:27 GMT -5
What is Liberal Arts as a major? Communications?Is the relationship of Communications to English similar to Language Arts to English in HS? These majors seem vague, amorphous to me as they could encompass almost anything. Are these watered down "college" courses of study? Easy course work? Do these courses enhance the academic reputation of the schooL? Does HC offer a Liberal Arts major? (Obviously, HC is a Liberal Arts college which offers academic majors.) Does HC offer a Communications major? Are these watered down courses? If we did offer these courses could that be viewed as a lowering of our standards or integrity? Are these majors merely attractive inducements for athletes to attend ? Just askin'. Maybe, none of this matters. Still I hope that HC keeps to its academic moorings. LoveHC Elitism aside, a College of HC's size can only offer so many majors except those of the type where the requirements would by definition cross over several departments.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2018 9:19:28 GMT -5
I'm sure that the majors of football players at schools with superior academic and athletic reputations as compared to HC (BC, Villanova, Georgetown [hoops], Notre Dame, Stanford, Wake Forest, Vandy, Richmond, Northwestern, etc) are relevant in some folks' minds. I don't see it. Villanova's star QB is an economics major if that means anything to anybody...and Peter Pujols was a psych major if that means anything either.
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Post by southernsader on Sept 25, 2018 11:24:57 GMT -5
Villanova? Are we so naive to think that Villanova has won an NBA, oops, NCAA basketball championship and compete successfully for CAA//National standing in f-ball and Villanova has the academics for all its students on the same level as does HC? Get real. In my opinion no way any of these big-time programs are the equal of HC in those important areas that count. IMHO these schools do not have the integrity of HC and are not role models for HC. Quite simply these schools are not in the same class as HC. HC is known for its institutional integrity. A degree from Holy Cross means a lot. Furthermore in professional circles - medical, legal, corporate, et.al. - none of these schools have the same high standing as does Holy Cross. There is an immense amount of respect for Holy Cross in the educated/professional elite of this country. HC has an enviable level of respect, matched by very few schools and certainly not matched by Villanova, BC or even ND. Don't you alums see what we have? Don't squander it, cheapen our degree in pursuit of athletic success. Peace and fellowship to all. LoveHC A bit hyperbolic mm....Holy Cross has lost some academic branding/standing in the last 25-30 years...Villanova (in terms of perception anyway) is very much our academic peer....as is Richmond...2 schools that play CAA football and very high-level D1 hoop. My glasses are as purple as anyone's (or at least I thought so), but in what fantasy world do BC and ND not have as much (or more) of "an enviable level of respect" as we do?
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 25, 2018 11:58:06 GMT -5
southernsader. OK OK. I'll give you that about ND, the flagship of Catholic higher education and BC a school that has greatly improved. But, these two fine schools do make academic compromises as of necessity to field big time teams. HC continues to follow the IL policy of fielding teams with student-athletes who are in total academically representative of the student body. IL athletes (last least football and BB) are not representative of the student body. Admissions are relaxed for athletes - obviously.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 25, 2018 12:34:23 GMT -5
Spring, 1970 newly appointed President of Holy Cross John Brooks, S.J. announces that athletic scholarships will no longer be offered to incoming students. The outcry from the alumni was so strong that Fr Brooks was forced to reinstate athletic scholarships within 1-2 mos of his announcement. (Of course, Fr Brooks got his way several years later when the school dropped athletic scholarships.) Today, HC continues to rely heavily on alumni financial support. Was there any alumni opposition when HC announced that it was going to join the Patriot League? Are you asking that question seriously? Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in. Are you asking that question seriously? uh, yes. Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in.
so it was a come from behind "win" in Brooks v HC Alumni/NCAA Grants. Fr Brooks (RIP) was a formidable opponent who knew how to "play the game". but the alumni was/is a force to be reckoned with at HC.
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Post by gks on Sept 25, 2018 13:09:58 GMT -5
southernsader. OK OK. I'll give you that about ND, the flagship of Catholic higher education and BC a school that has greatly improved. But, these two fine schools do make academic compromises as of necessity to field big time teams. HC continues to follow the IL policy of fielding teams with student-athletes who are in total academically representative of the student body. IL athletes (last least football and BB) are not representative of the student body. Admissions are relaxed for athletes - obviously. I'd add hockey to this list as well.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 25, 2018 14:35:58 GMT -5
I think the Ivies are pretty above aboard on the AI....I could be wrong, I dunno...but the #'s on GPA, SATs that pp posted didn't seem otherworldly academically to meet the AI standard in both the IL and PL imo...particularly if you're recruiting all ovah the country/world.
That being said...I really can't think of any student-athletes in the 80s that I went to school with who were a real stretch in being admitted at HC without an AI wall.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2018 14:51:52 GMT -5
The point I was making about the majors of several CAA schools is that these institutions offer a different curriculum than does HC, a small liberal arts college. There seem to be posters who believe that HC could join the CAA, and field a competitive team without changing the liberal arts curriculum.
Villanova's degrees by major, class of 2017. Business Marketing 30.7% Engineering 13% Health professions 12.3% (this is nursing) Communications 7.3%
Over half this Villanova graduating class had a major not offered by HC. At Elon, by far the largest single percentage of the graduates, 26.5 percent, majored in business / marketing.
The hard fact is that the traditional liberal arts are out of favor with the majority, if not the great majority, of high school students today. This has nothing to do with elitism, perceived or otherwise. It has everything to do with a college pursuing a niche curriculum which is of limited interest for many high school graduates, including football players. ______________________
The AI exists for a purpose. If HC admits 800 students, a low low band athlete will be ranked between 795 and 798 of 800 in that entering class. Football, and some other sports, are very consumptive of available time these days; more so than in decades past. IMO, it is grievously unfair to recruit and admit a student-athlete who will most likely struggle mightily in his/her coursework, while trying to practice / play at the levels expected of him / her.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2018 15:28:45 GMT -5
PP - Not sure the particular majors offered are high up on the recruited D-1 ballplayer's checklist when committing to a college mid-way through their high school senior year. (It is also true that various college seniors who play football at other schools may or may not have majors resembling majors at Holy Cross.)
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Post by timholycross on Sept 25, 2018 15:34:45 GMT -5
Are you asking that question seriously? Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in. Are you asking that question seriously? uh, yes. Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in.
so it was a come from behind "win" in Brooks v HC Alumni/NCAA Grants. Fr Brooks (RIP) was a formidable opponent who knew how to "play the game". but the alumni was/is a force to be reckoned with at HC. All I know is the Colonial League (former name of league, and football only; everything else came in 89 or 90) trial balloon was floated circa 82 or 83 and was seemingly universally trashed (alumni, fans, others). I think that most people thought the league was dead, but they were wrong. Brooks got the right people to buy in, that's for sure. So, yes, you could say the rank-and-file alumni were not listened to on this one, but I think that the prevaling thinking was (and was proven true) that it wouldn't hurt contributions that much.
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Post by JRGNYR on Sept 25, 2018 15:38:19 GMT -5
The point I was making about the majors of several CAA schools is that these institutions offer a different curriculum than does HC, a small liberal arts college. There seem to be posters who believe that HC could join the CAA, and field a competitive team without changing the liberal arts curriculum. Villanova's degrees by major, class of 2017. Business Marketing 30.7% Engineering 13% Health professions 12.3% (this is nursing) Communications 7.3% Over half this Villanova graduating class had a major not offered by HC. At Elon, by far the largest single percentage of the graduates, 26.5 percent, majored in business / marketing. The hard fact is that the traditional liberal arts are out of favor with the majority, if not the great majority, of high school students today. This has nothing to do with elitism, perceived or otherwise. It has everything to do with a college pursuing a niche curriculum which is of limited interest for many high school graduates, including football players. ______________________ The AI exists for a purpose. If HC admits 800 students, a low low band athlete will be ranked between 795 and 798 of 800 in that entering class. Football, and some other sports, are very consumptive of available time these days; more so than in decades past. IMO, it is grievously unfair to recruit and admit a student-athlete who will most likely struggle mightily in his/her coursework, while trying to practice / play at the levels expected of him / her. You hit on the same argument I've made about HC and potential BE membership back in the late 70s. By necessity, the school would look a whole lot different now. I also agree that a good number of students coming out of high school, athletes or otherwise, are seeking more specialized majors now than was the case when I was looking at colleges 20+ years ago.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 25, 2018 16:55:20 GMT -5
Are you asking that question seriously? uh, yes. Of course there was, but Brooks got the right people to buy in.
so it was a come from behind "win" in Brooks v HC Alumni/NCAA Grants. Fr Brooks (RIP) was a formidable opponent who knew how to "play the game". but the alumni was/is a force to be reckoned with at HC. All I know is the Colonial League (former name of league, and football only; everything else came in 89 or 90) trial balloon was floated circa 82 or 83 and was seemingly universally trashed (alumni, fans, others). I think that most people thought the league was dead, but they were wrong. Brooks got the right people to buy in, that's for sure. So, yes, you could say the rank-and-file alumni were not listened to on this one, but I think that the prevaling thinking was (and was proven true) that it wouldn't hurt contributions that much. interesting. thank you for the input/history. again Fr Brooks knew how to get what he wanted and was usually successful. not saying that the HC alumni is some puppet master but there is no Fr Brooks on the administration team right now. so, influence of the HC alumni is stronger with him gone. don't think that we would have scheduled BC, Syracuse football games if Fr Brooks was still around.
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Post by jkh67 on Sept 25, 2018 19:43:17 GMT -5
All I know is the Colonial League (former name of league, and football only; everything else came in 89 or 90) trial balloon was floated circa 82 or 83 and was seemingly universally trashed (alumni, fans, others). I think that most people thought the league was dead, but they were wrong. Brooks got the right people to buy in, that's for sure. So, yes, you could say the rank-and-file alumni were not listened to on this one, but I think that the prevaling thinking was (and was proven true) that it wouldn't hurt contributions that much. interesting. thank you for the input/history. again Fr Brooks knew how to get what he wanted and was usually successful. not saying that the HC alumni is some puppet master but there is no Fr Brooks on the administration team right now. so, influence of the HC alumni is stronger with him gone. don't think that we would have scheduled BC, Syracuse football games if Fr Brooks was still around. Much though I disagreed with Brooks (my junior year Theology teacher...Heils Geschichte, baby!) about the BE and PL at the time, the reality is that we have no business these days playing teams like BC, Syracuse...or (likely) Army or Navy, until we can do better against our PL, IL, and CAA "peers". The reality is that Brooks screwed HC athletics mightily...but that's not to say he wasn't right, given our small size and the seismically changing intercollegiate athletic environment since the early to mid-80s.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 25, 2018 20:57:14 GMT -5
You know I can't help myself, so....it's not so much where we are now as to where we could have been had we gone Big East in 1979. A colossally poor decision (one of very few) by Fr Brooks. He may have been right about D1 athletics in general but like schools like BC, PC and Villanova, we could have found our place in that world without hurting our school's academic/school brand....as I've stated before, we lost a LOT of our academic cachet/branding by not going into the Big East. OK...rant ovah....for now
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