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Post by hc87 on Sept 1, 2019 18:12:40 GMT -5
hc87- I assume your time at HC was in the mid80's. My time was in the mid60's. And, I have a close association with HC back to the late 50's. Our years at HC do greatly influence our views of HC football today. Those great, golden years of the 1980's were an outlier as were the 1930's. Let's hope that at least we can successfully compete and win some PL championships in my lifetime. Go Cross Go. LoveHC I was but as the son of a diehard alum, I've been going to HC games since.the late 1960s. HC was perfectly positioned as a 1-AA team in the 1980s but like hoop, we screwed that up.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 1, 2019 18:47:32 GMT -5
So we can accept it or work to make it better.
Our Board and the President might think we are crazy to push for athletic excellence, however, I was told by one Jesuit, JEB, that crazy ideas can change the world if you can make it happen. It was his thinking that by transitioning the right way he could make us an Ivy institution. A crazy idea that was half right —we transitioned
As Steve Jobs said “those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world usually do.”
Complaining is mostly wasted energy, albeit occasionally therapeutic—-What can and should be done and if alignment is possible what vehicle do we choose to make it happen?
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 1, 2019 19:28:25 GMT -5
hc87- I assume your time at HC was in the mid80's. My time was in the mid60's. And, I have a close association with HC back to the late 50's. Our years at HC do greatly influence our views of HC football today. Those great, golden years of the 1980's were an outlier as were the 1930's. Let's hope that at least we can successfully compete and win some PL championships in my lifetime. Go Cross Go. LoveHC I think we should aspire for more but if we are stuck in all sports to a patriot league model than so be it. Then win the league each year, take on all other challengers, and be considered a model for excellence and not mediocrity. This will take about 5 years across the athletic program but worth the effort. You are right. The only way up is to consistently win the PL and make some noise in the post season. In five years there could be new opportunities such as the northern tier of the CAA breaking off and welcoming a new member or UConn and UMass as the nucleus of a new league, either high FCS or low FBS, or the PL taking football more seriously and no longer looking at itself as the Washington Generals for the Ivy League.
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Post by cmo on Sept 1, 2019 19:45:40 GMT -5
[/quote]HC was regularly beating CAA schools like Delaware, UMass, William&Mary etc as well as Army in the 1980s....not just PL and Ivy schools.[/quote]
Like Ralph beating the A-10. This hurts the “they had scholarships” others didn’t argument.
Duff had half a dozen + assistants on those staffs that have been career NFL and High D1 coaches. They were great coaches, not just guys beating up on weaker opponents.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 1, 2019 19:49:57 GMT -5
Coming from a 60-5-1 winning program helped everyone involved with the program.
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Post by cmo on Sept 1, 2019 19:56:44 GMT -5
Granted, but if they weren’t tremendous coaches, they wouldn’t have 30 year NFL Careers.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 1, 2019 20:12:05 GMT -5
Yes, and they got their initial training under a great mentor. I had a friend who worked as an assistant food service director at HC during the Duffner years. She said that some coaches were burnt out or jaded in their approach to ordering travel meals or pre-game team meals, etc. from Kimball and their requests were like: "Now don't screw up again and give us ham and cheese sandwiches, we want turkey and tuna sandwiches and don't put too much Mayo on them like you did last time"
Duffner, on the other hand instructed all of his staff and players to be unfailingly polite and considerate in all their interactions with HC staff. He met personally with my friend and her colleagues, thanked them
and requested to be immediately contacted if anyone from the football team was rude or impolite.
Naturally the food service staff ran through a brick wall for Duffner and the football program.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 1, 2019 20:35:07 GMT -5
cmo Yes. Folks forget that Coach Carter was BEFORE the Patriot League. He went 35 and 19 going schollie v schollie (except of course the Ivies who were grant-in -aid at the time). And 5 of those losses were to 1-A Boston College. So it can be done and has been done at HC. It is true that Duffner had a great run (Carter's recruits such as Wiley. Lockbaum, McCabe, McGovern, etc. were a tad helpful) and did have a softer PL schedule but played OOC (and beat) schollie schools also. How did Carter/HC attract those terrific players? Our great academic reputation at the time helped, our lack of AI might have helped here and there, our full schollies were often better than grants-in aid, Carter and his assistants (including, but not limited to, Duffner) were great recruiters and great football coaches and the kids knew it.
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Post by deep Purple on Sept 1, 2019 21:30:10 GMT -5
Re the teams of the '80's: Let's get real. HC was a scholarship team with a great coaching staff evidently aided by EBW '42 (Owner of the Redskins). We obliterated and humiliated our non-scholarship foes largely because of these advantages in talent and coaching. My Ivy friends Columbia, Harvard & Penn resented the roll up scores. Penn paid us back big time. Columbia has stopped playing against us. Our unfair advantage was pointed out to me by some former PL school grads and HC grads too. "HC was the little mouse that roared." Our unfair scholarship advantage was unsustainable if we were to continue to compete in the non-scholarship PL. We began to lose when we lost our unfair advantage and played these same schools on an even playing field. If we kept scholarships and dropped out of the PL, we would have returned to the prior years of being in a "no man's land" and losing to larger schools with more developed programs and more lax academic standards for their athletes. Thus, our scholarship opponents would have had the recruiting advantage over HC. Losses were sure to follow!
For example: Does anyone credibly believe that HC would win more against larger CAA schools whose lower academic standards would provide them with a greater selection of recruits and better players? Get real. In the 1980's Yankee Conference schools had 70 scholarships. 1987 HC 54 - UMass 10 HC 39 - Villanova 6 HC 40 - William & Mary 7 (W&M beat Navy that year)
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Post by jsherman on Sept 1, 2019 22:36:24 GMT -5
just a thought - Chesney and the coaches are all effecting change. They have inherited a team, they've started recruiting THEIR recruits. obviously being able to play them day one isn't easy - hell, patriot league / holy cross won't let incoming freshman come in during the spring. so they show up at camp and that is their first real exposure to college level, dare I say, Division 1 level football. so... my input to you all - relax a bit. some of you are calling for people's necks. they just took the reins. there is still work to do. as in all things, change doesn't happen over night. heck, I've only been a fan of the crusaders for about a year now... and look at my impact (ok, someone laugh with me)
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 1, 2019 22:45:03 GMT -5
just a thought - Chesney and the coaches are all effecting change. They have inherited a team, they've started recruiting THEIR recruits. obviously being able to play them day one isn't easy - hell, patriot league / holy cross won't let incoming freshman come in during the spring. so they show up at camp and that is their first real exposure to college level, dare I say, Division 1 level football. so... my input to you all - relax a bit. some of you are calling for people's necks. they just took the reins. there is still work to do. as in all things, change doesn't happen over night. heck, I've only been a fan of the crusaders for about a year now... and look at my impact (ok, someone laugh with me) Just wait until we win a game. Then on this board we're going to the Rose Bowl!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 1, 2019 22:45:49 GMT -5
Great post, Mr Sherman
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 1, 2019 23:10:18 GMT -5
I was but as the son of a diehard alum, I've been going to HC games since.the late 1960s. HC was perfectly positioned as a 1-AA team in the 1980s but like hoop, we screwed that up. I believe that there were many reasons that "we screwed that up" - philosophical, financial and academic. Actually, some felt HC would be better suited for the NESCC in Div. 3. Evidently, HC expressed some interest but could not "get past the front gate" of the NESCC. Maybe, at some point in the future you will get your wish with HC in the CAA for football and I assume BE for basketball. And, I assume that in your view these changes in emphasis will improve HC - its academics and culture as a small, highly selective,New England liberal arts college. Or, maybe the PL... Never mind. Stay well. Love HC MM, the New England Small College Athletic Conference is also known as "The Little Ivies" and if we recruited apples to apples against them with need based financial aid, I fear we would end up as a doormat in that league because all/most of the member schools rank higher than us as liberal arts colleges and thus offer more value to recruits for the same net cost. Union College was an original member but dropped out and was replaced by Connecticut College. I wonder if it was because they wanted to play D-1 hockey or if it was geographic because I think they were the only non-New England member? Interestingly, when you Google "Little Ivies" there are some expanded definitions beyond the NESCAC. Lafayette is included in one, but HC isn't included in any.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 1, 2019 23:34:13 GMT -5
I think we can all agree scheduling two FBS teams this year is a scheduling disaster. Had we opened v a CAA team we would at least have an idea if our QB can get it done v our normal competition. Also, I think some/much of our play calling was influenced by the obvious need to grind out the clock v a decent FBS team. Finally, John Oliver's stat line, 4 rushes for a total of 8 yards, is not what I expected (again, it is sort of useless as a predictor to how productive he will be and how often his number will be called v our normal competition). I have solved the rushing game issue against Navy. John Oliver was playing instead of Peter. If anyone is familiar with John Oliver, he probably was confused why we kept calling this game that he was playing football. As as we all know, John Oliver is a comedian who was born in England, and has a show on HBO and seen on Comedy Central. 😆🤣
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 1, 2019 23:41:04 GMT -5
I believe that there were many reasons that "we screwed that up" - philosophical, financial and academic. Actually, some felt HC would be better suited for the NESCC in Div. 3. Evidently, HC expressed some interest but could not "get past the front gate" of the NESCC. Maybe, at some point in the future you will get your wish with HC in the CAA for football and I assume BE for basketball. And, I assume that in your view these changes in emphasis will improve HC - its academics and culture as a small, highly selective,New England liberal arts college. Or, maybe the PL... Never mind. Stay well. Love HC MM, the New England Small College Athletic Conference is also known as "The Little Ivies" and if we recruited apples to apples against them with need based financial aid, I fear we would end up as a doormat in that league because all/most of the member schools rank higher than us as liberal arts colleges and thus offer more value to recruits for the same net cost. Union College was an original member but dropped out and was replaced by Connecticut College. I wonder if it was because they wanted to play D-1 hockey or if it was geographic because I think they were the only non-New England member?
Interestingly, when you Google "Little Ivies" there are some expanded definitions beyond the NESCAC. Lafayette is included in one, but HC isn't included in any. NESCAC still has one outlier-- Hamilton College in Upstate New York is a NESCAC member. Otherwise it's 3 each in Maine, Mass, Conn and 1 in Vermont.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 2, 2019 0:05:16 GMT -5
I believe that there were many reasons that "we screwed that up" - philosophical, financial and academic. Actually, some felt HC would be better suited for the NESCC in Div. 3. Evidently, HC expressed some interest but could not "get past the front gate" of the NESCC. Maybe, at some point in the future you will get your wish with HC in the CAA for football and I assume BE for basketball. And, I assume that in your view these changes in emphasis will improve HC - its academics and culture as a small, highly selective,New England liberal arts college. Or, maybe the PL... Never mind. Stay well. Love HC MM, the New England Small College Athletic Conference is also known as "The Little Ivies" and if we recruited apples to apples against them with need based financial aid, I fear we would end up as a doormat in that league because all/most of the member schools rank higher than us as liberal arts colleges and thus offer more value to recruits for the same net cost. Union College was an original member but dropped out and was replaced by Connecticut College. I wonder if it was because they wanted to play D-1 hockey or if it was geographic because I think they were the only non-New England member? Interestingly, when you Google "Little Ivies" there are some expanded definitions beyond the NESCAC. Lafayette is included in one, but HC isn't included in any. Regarding Union, I believe when they left NESCAC, at the time the NESCAC did not sponsor ice hockey, NESCAC began sponsorship as a league for ice hockey in the 2000-2001 season. Prior to 2000, the teams that competed in the NESCAC, were under ECAC D3 sponsorship. Hamilton is in the NESCAC. They are not located in New England.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 2, 2019 4:23:51 GMT -5
Money and Greed ruined geographical conferences (and some former long time rivalries). We can always thank the Almighty Dollar for coming through in the clutch!
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 2, 2019 7:15:00 GMT -5
PP- Respectfully, Chesney previously was an hc at Div. 2 Assumption. Peter Vaas, God Bless him was a successful HC qb, successful hc at Allegheny, a qb coach at ND and had a losing record at HC and after Holy Cross left coaching to sell insurance. So what's your point? Look, it has been one game, a big loss to a far superior Navy team. Now, let's fire assistants? Do you really believe it was offensive sets or talent & team speed that were the reasons for our loss? Everyone knew that this game was going to be extremely "tough." Why not fire Chesney? Fire Fr.Boroughs as the person ultimately responsible. We finished last year with 4 straight wins. Do the assistants get any credit for those 4 wins or should they nonetheless have been fired? Why not let the season play out and then evaluate. Just sayin'. With respect... LoveHC mm67, I am not interested in firing Chesney. I was simply observing that the coaching backgrounds of the three assistants most responsible for the offense are predominately small school backgrounds, and I am of the view that much of what you learn as a coach is through assimilation from the coaching and competitive environment one finds oneself in during a season. For me, their c.v.'s do not suggest they are big change agents. Mike Sherman hasn't walked through the doors at Luth. At Dartmouth, the background of the three assistants with the same position responsibilities. OC / QB Coach. Played UC Davis as a QB , drafted in fifth round by Titans. Four years of NFL experience. Seven years an assistant at Cal Berkeley. Third year at Dartmouth. (Majored in biology, BTW ). WR coach Played at Dartmouth. 15 years of NFL coaching experience, including five as HC of the Bengals. Played one year in NFL. Second year at Dartmouth. RB coach Played at San Diego. 15 years of prep school coaching experience (NJ/PA) , as head and assistant. Fifth year at Dartmouth.
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Post by gks on Sept 2, 2019 8:34:14 GMT -5
You cannot compare HC to any of the Ivies (maybe Brown and Cornell). They are a bottomless pit of money that can pay their assistants and give them a salary so the can stay.
It's about commitment. Right now HC's athletic program across the board is closer to that of a prep school than a D1 college. That has to change for any success to be sustained.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 2, 2019 8:54:48 GMT -5
In the 1980's Yankee Conference schools had 70 scholarships. 1987 HC 54 - UMass 10 HC 39 - Villanova 6 HC 40 - William & Mary 7 (W&M beat Navy that year) It is quite facile to cherry pick an outlier era , the 1980's and opponents from that era and ignore 50+ years of HC football. In the time period immediately preceding the 80's there were no periods of years with similar success. In the last 30 years since the 80's there have been no indications of a return to that level of success. HC is a small liberal arts college with high academic standards and budget limitations due to our small size. Additionally, the college football landscape has changed, involving greater expense and more intense competition for players, TV money and exposure. It will be all we can do to have a 10 year reign of success in the PL let alone successfully compete in the higher level CAA. In God's name what data, what experience outside the '80's can you point to that would indicate a return to the level of play and glory of the 80's or even the ability of HC to play at the competitive level of the CAA. It is an outlier You can't go home again. Peace. LoveHC I think a couple of folks were reminding you that HC did well in the 80's v scholarship teams and 'grant in aid' Ivies. (You seemed to suggest we spent the 80's beating up on non schollie teams with our schollie teams.) Also, as my one-millionth reminder on this topic to Crossporters, Rick Carter (81, 82, 83, 84, and 85) did NOT coach in the Patriot League...his highly successful coaching was solely v schollie teams and 'grants in aid' Ivies prior to the Patriot League. (Admittedly, our subsequent Patriot League schedule in the second half of the 80's did soften things up a bit.) But, your point that the 80's was an outlier in that we were a successful football program (and unrealistic attempts to match that outlier born of specific historical circumstances are unrealistic) is well taken. At the same time a lot of folks have pointed out that if we could at least consistently top the PL and have the talent level of a mid-pack CAA team that would be an enormous step at this point and that may be possible.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 2, 2019 10:15:12 GMT -5
PP- Respectfully, Chesney previously was an hc at Div. 2 Assumption. Peter Vaas, God Bless him was a successful HC qb, successful hc at Allegheny, a qb coach at ND and had a losing record at HC and after Holy Cross left coaching to sell insurance. So what's your point? Look, it has been one game, a big loss to a far superior Navy team. Now, let's fire assistants? Do you really believe it was offensive sets or talent & team speed that were the reasons for our loss? Everyone knew that this game was going to be extremely "tough." Why not fire Chesney? Fire Fr.Boroughs as the person ultimately responsible. We finished last year with 4 straight wins. Do the assistants get any credit for those 4 wins or should they nonetheless have been fired? Why not let the season play out and then evaluate. Just sayin'. With respect... LoveHC mm67, I am not interested in firing Chesney. I was simply observing that the coaching backgrounds of the three assistants most responsible for the offense are predominately small school backgrounds, and I am of the view that much of what you learn as a coach is through assimilation from the coaching and competitive environment one finds oneself in during a season. For me, their c.v.'s do not suggest they are big change agents. Mike Sherman hasn't walked through the doors at Luth. At Dartmouth, the background of the three assistants with the same position responsibilities. OC / QB Coach. Played UC Davis as a QB , drafted in fifth round by Titans. Four years of NFL experience. Seven years an assistant at Cal Berkeley. Third year at Dartmouth. (Majored in biology, BTW ). WR coach Played at Dartmouth. 15 years of NFL coaching experience, including five as HC of the Bengals. Played one year in NFL. Second year at Dartmouth. RB coach Played at San Diego. 15 years of prep school coaching experience (NJ/PA) , as head and assistant. Fifth year at Dartmouth. Not impressed by the resumes when you look at the actual people. Shula would not have been an offensive quality control assistant in the league without his last name. HC has a history of great assistant coaches, even in leaner times. Regardless of their resumes, etc. there are two things we can do with respect to assistants to improve the team: 1. Provide for higher pay for future openings; and 2. Immediate create an opening at Offensive Coordinator.
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Post by matunuck on Sept 2, 2019 10:42:05 GMT -5
While we still would have lost by a significant amount, the 45-7 final score was largely the result of very mediocre QB play and a vanilla playbook for the offense. Will Chesney take command and adjust or not.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 2, 2019 11:13:35 GMT -5
I would supersede your latter point with terrible line play (including snapping the ball) that for the most part would have prevented the most experienced and creative (we have little in that regard) QB and OC from running just about ANY play.
Plus, HC's outside defenders failure to correctly cover the running back(s) who had open territory any time Mr. Perry chose to pitch it to them. I'd put this in the "for whatever reason" category; speed, coaching, not being in the right place, whatever.
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Post by Chu Chu on Sept 2, 2019 11:21:49 GMT -5
We are at the beginning of a long rebuilding process. Saturday's result is not a surprise. The pieces are falling into place - facilities, scholarships, great recruiting. The future is bright, but we have always known the first four games of this season are a murderous challenge. This coming Saturday will be more telling, IMO. I think that the play calling and game plan against Navy were tailored to our personell. Go Cross!
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Post by HC92 on Sept 2, 2019 12:42:49 GMT -5
Was just looking at the box score. Navy had 14 different players who rushed the football. That has to be close to a record.
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