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Post by hcpride on Sept 3, 2019 4:50:05 GMT -5
It’s too early in this new era (Luth and Chesney) to make final decisions about the appropriateness of playing FBS teams. Let’s see how we do in a couple of years Scheduling one FBS opponent per season is par for the course for just about all scholarship FCS teams. 100+ such crossover games are played every year. Not going away. Theyre $$$ games -- no different than the basketball team going to play Michigan. Note that playing two of these games like we are doing this year will be an outlier (and should be). There will be occasional seasons where we don't play an FBS, perhaps if we can't work out an open date with a regional opponent. Aren’t non-medical redshirts par for the course for the schollie FCS schools that schedule FBS opponents? (Hey, if we’re going along with schollie FCS football trends lets go along with schollie FCS football trends.)
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 3, 2019 6:24:21 GMT -5
Scheduling one FBS opponent per season is par for the course for just about all scholarship FCS teams. 100+ such crossover games are played every year. Not going away. Theyre $$$ games -- no different than the basketball team going to play Michigan. Note that playing two of these games like we are doing this year will be an outlier (and should be). There will be occasional seasons where we don't play an FBS, perhaps if we can't work out an open date with a regional opponent. Aren’t non-medical redshirts par for the course for the schollie FCS schools that schedule FBS opponents? (Hey, if we’re going along with schollie FCS football trends lets go along with schollie FCS football trends.) Yes. They are. Look at the number of redshirt players on the St Francis team that beat Lehigh. Those numbers are not unusual.
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Post by crusader12 on Sept 3, 2019 7:00:41 GMT -5
Glad I did not waste my labor day weekend on this mess of a game! May go Saturday depending on weather.
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Post by wheeler5 on Sept 3, 2019 7:30:09 GMT -5
... once we establish a winning environment we can and should be able to use the enhanced schedule to attract talent and retain and pay coaches You're assuming that we'll establish a "winning environment." What makes you think that we can assume that? Can you ever assume you're going to win? What if we don't? Coach Chesney is still in his honeymoon period, so we should give him the benefit of the doubt. But the team on Saturday did not seem particularly well-coached. One kick returner for example seemed almost lackadaisical. Play calling was unimaginative. The defense could not defend against the option play even though they've known from the beginning that Navy's offense was an option offense. if winning were easy, everybody would always win!
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Post by efg72 on Sept 3, 2019 9:57:45 GMT -5
Appreciate your well stated comments by raising the what if-- well we all have an opinion on where things might go and I am a glass full guy.. I looked at the game on Saturday as scrimmage with a check-- I know it counts as a loss but going in as a 23 point dog means nobody expected the game to be competitive.
Offensively I would love to see more creativity but I think until the dust settles they are trying to keep it as simple as possible. Play calling is what one would expect for a first game, especially in the second half.-- if you recall things opened up a bit ( not enough for sure) last year when the staff had confidence in the QB to execute
Defensively they tweaked the 4-2-5 to make it look like a 4-3 but the speed and quickness allowed Navy's line and backs to get to the edge and control the perimeter. Again I didn't expect the staff to switch from the D they are committed to for the season for this one game- or Syracuse
On the kick return he caught it around the end zone and to me was not sure exactly where the ball was received and then took off to avoid a possible safety
All in all I am not concerned by what took place this past weekend. The talent is improving, we have players on the roster who appear to be more fundamentally sound upon their arrival and a coaching staff that understands the needs of the team
If things don't improve in the weeks ahead you might have some that move from a glass full to a glass half-full but I am willing to give it another two recruiting classes
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Post by nhteamer on Sept 3, 2019 10:32:35 GMT -5
With all due respect, this is all just a bunch of wanking. Fr Boroughs and the Trustees make these decisions. I have a theory that he was sold a bill of goods by AD Pine and some others who had the harebrained idea of scheduling a bunch of FBS schools when we were getting our asses handed to us by PL schools. Do you know why we had that run in the 80s? Two reasons: Fr Brooks and Edward Bennett Williams, two very serious individuals who knew what it takes to win. EBW flew out to Ohio in his private plane to pick up Rick Carter. That kind of thing can make an impression. Do you really think it enhances our "brand" to to see our players get beat up by bigger, stronger, faster, and more talented FBS players? Ha Wheeler, that's funny. "Two reasons: Fr Brooks and Edward Bennett Williams" The ONLY reason we had that run starting with the Rick Carter hire is that EBW had the foresight, wisdom, real world view, and balls to tell JEB that if he wasn't allowed to run with the ball without the the impedance of JEB's narrow, parochial, elite, vision that had he WOULDN'T take the job. JEB? athletic vision? What a sad, sad joke.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 3, 2019 11:14:07 GMT -5
Father Brooks accepted the vision of EBW, he did not embrace it! As a result he reverted to his vision when given the opportunity. While i could be wrong, I actually believe the kids look forward to these games and a reason to pick a school like Holy Cross. I am not suggesting Syracuse and the like be a fixture on the schedule, but lower D1 programs are attractive draws for players-Harvard, Princeton, and Yale get better talent because they are HYP, once we establish a winning environment we can and should be able to use the enhanced schedule to attract talent and retain and pay coaches So yes i am in favor of Academies being on the schedule It (FBS games) only hurts for three hours and then the mandatory half life on this board. Before and after it's an asset. The next BC game is building in value every day.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 3, 2019 11:26:22 GMT -5
Appreciate your well stated comments by raising the what if-- well we all have an opinion on where things might go and I am a glass full guy.. I looked at the game on Saturday as scrimmage with a check-- I know it counts as a loss but going in as a 23 point dog means nobody expected the game to be competitive. Offensively I would love to see more creativity but I think until the dust settles they are trying to keep it as simple as possible. Play calling is what one would expect for a first game, especially in the second half.-- if you recall things opened up a bit ( not enough for sure) last year when the staff had confidence in the QB to execute Defensively they tweaked the 4-2-5 to make it look like a 4-3 but the speed and quickness allowed Navy's line and backs to get to the edge and control the perimeter. Again I didn't expect the staff to switch from the D they are committed to for the season for this one game- or Syracuse On the kick return he caught it around the end zone and to me was not sure exactly where the ball was received and then took off to avoid a possible safety All in all I am not concerned by what took place this past weekend. The talent is improving, we have players on the roster who appear to be more fundamentally sound upon their arrival and a coaching staff that understands the needs of the team If things don't improve in the weeks ahead you might have some that move from a glass full to a glass half-full but I am willing to give it another two recruiting classes Note we didn't have any interceptions, which backs up your position. Coach Chesney probably has his eyes on the prize, the PLC and Auto bid, which is appropriate, but I hope the QB and receivers (and snap from center) can click together better against UNH and Yale. With Cozier back we could be much better.
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Post by Chu Chu on Sept 3, 2019 11:32:51 GMT -5
It’s too early in this new era (Luth and Chesney) to make final decisions about the appropriateness of playing FBS teams. Let’s see how we do in a couple of years I agree with KY. We are at the beginning of a rebuilding process, and have been taking the important steps - facilities, scholarships, coaches and great recruiting - to steadily improve. Meanwhile, games like Navy provide a destination event that our alums flock to. For example, my brother traveled from 3 states away and bought nine tickets to take his kids and grandkids along, all attired in their HC regalia. There was a huge HC turnout. this is a part of the process. Go big or go home! Go Cross!
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Post by rickii on Sept 3, 2019 14:21:11 GMT -5
Nice crowd—28000+ But not the 40,000 at BC last year. 28,000 in a 34,000 seat venue
40,000 in a 44,500 seat venue
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 3, 2019 21:42:09 GMT -5
UNH Game: A crowd of 9,000 with $5 General Admission Worcester Day and a decent following from UNH. Any other estimates?
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Post by timholycross on Sept 3, 2019 22:46:24 GMT -5
With all due respect, this is all just a bunch of wanking. Fr Boroughs and the Trustees make these decisions. I have a theory that he was sold a bill of goods by AD Pine and some others who had the harebrained idea of scheduling a bunch of FBS schools when we were getting our asses handed to us by PL schools. Do you know why we had that run in the 80s? Two reasons: Fr Brooks and Edward Bennett Williams, two very serious individuals who knew what it takes to win. EBW flew out to Ohio in his private plane to pick up Rick Carter. That kind of thing can make an impression. Do you really think it enhances our "brand" to to see our players get beat up by bigger, stronger, faster, and more talented FBS players? I heard Fr. Brooks state the obvious: It is much easier to raise money from alums when the fb team is 10 and 0 rather than 0 and 10. His comment was greeted with knowing, appreciative mild laughter. The 80's fb teams were there to both help raise much needed money for the school and serve as a positive, more acceptable transition to deemphasize to non- scholarship football. And then? And now, the present administration apparently is following the old dictum of keeping the alumni sullen but not mutinous. Those Jesuits are something else. LoveHC so brooks wanted the program to be good so no one would complain much when he effectively pulled the plug on it? I should have taken some logic courses I guess, I fail to understand the thought train here (edit) Although I will say that his making Fitton Field larger in its new incarnation than in its old one does, in a perverted way, fit your argument.
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Post by wheeler5 on Sept 4, 2019 8:45:55 GMT -5
Father Brooks accepted the vision of EBW, he did not embrace it! As a result he reverted to his vision when given the opportunity. What was the difference between those two visions, although I think I can probably guess? Sounds like there's a story there, and I would like to hear it. When I was a senior I interviewed father Brooks for the Crusader, and I was very impressed with him, but I don't know the backstory here.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 4, 2019 9:15:40 GMT -5
This thread bores me. Can we put it to bed and move on to UNH? I don't want to see the "NEW" next to it anymore.
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Post by matunuck on Sept 4, 2019 9:23:40 GMT -5
This thread bores me. Can we put it to bed and move on to UNH? I don't want to see the "NEW" next to it anymore. Just curious - why not just ignore thread like I do when I have such sentiments?
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 4, 2019 9:34:45 GMT -5
Father Brooks accepted the vision of EBW, he did not embrace it! As a result he reverted to his vision when given the opportunity. What was the difference between those two visions, although I think I can probably guess? Sounds like there's a story there, and I would like to hear it. When I was a senior I interviewed father Brooks for the Crusader, and I was very impressed with him, but I don't know the backstory here. Recommend you read the last chapter of Fr K's book; CH 11 'Toward a History of the Brooks Administration 1970 - 1994'.... beginning p 468. 'Integrity and balance of another sort were at stake as College officials continued efforts to harmonize the school's athletic tradition with the realities of college sports in the television age.'
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Post by gks on Sept 4, 2019 9:41:53 GMT -5
What was the difference between those two visions, although I think I can probably guess? Sounds like there's a story there, and I would like to hear it. When I was a senior I interviewed father Brooks for the Crusader, and I was very impressed with him, but I don't know the backstory here. Recommend you read the last chapter of Fr K's book; CH 11 'Toward a History of the Brooks Administration 1970 - 1994'.... beginning p 468. 'Integrity and balance of another sort were at stake as College officials continued efforts to harmonize the school's athletic tradition with the realities of college sports in the television age.' I don't know what it is but the whole Brooks/Big East/Dropping Scholarships story fascinates me. Very rare to see a program at the top of its game and give it all away. Can't think of another example (maybe University of Chicago back in the day). One thing I've never seen the answer to...Why did Brooks feel the need to do this? Was Holy Cross on the brink of an epic scandal? Why couldn't football have just stayed it's course and played on with great players who were also great students? Was it just as simple as Harvard et al just convincing Brooks to be like them? It's a great story. That's all....on to UNH.
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Post by spenser on Sept 4, 2019 9:54:31 GMT -5
What was the difference between those two visions, although I think I can probably guess? Sounds like there's a story there, and I would like to hear it. When I was a senior I interviewed father Brooks for the Crusader, and I was very impressed with him, but I don't know the backstory here. Recommend you read the last chapter of Fr K's book; CH 11 'Toward a History of the Brooks Administration 1970 - 1994'.... beginning p 468. 'Integrity and balance of another sort were at stake as College officials continued efforts to harmonize the school's athletic tradition with the realities of college sports in the television age.' Any idea where I can get this book.
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Post by Chu Chu on Sept 4, 2019 9:57:24 GMT -5
Amazon.com has it. Also the HC Bookstore.
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 4, 2019 10:06:00 GMT -5
Recommend you read the last chapter of Fr K's book; CH 11 'Toward a History of the Brooks Administration 1970 - 1994'.... beginning p 468. 'Integrity and balance of another sort were at stake as College officials continued efforts to harmonize the school's athletic tradition with the realities of college sports in the television age.' I don't know what it is but the whole Brooks/Big East/Dropping Scholarships story fascinates me. Very rare to see a program at the top of its game and give it all away. Can't think of another example (maybe University of Chicago back in the day). One thing I've never seen the answer to...Why did Brooks feel the need to do this? Was Holy Cross on the brink of an epic scandal? Why couldn't football have just stayed it's course and played on with great players who were also great students? Was it just as simple as Harvard et al just convincing Brooks to be like them? It's a great story. That's all....on to UNH. Ch 10 'The Shape of the Third Holy Cross, 1968 - 1972' p 432 forward relates the issues with athletics including infractions self reported to the NCAA. I wonder if Fr K would consider the Crusader identity thing the beginning of a Fourth Holy Cross era.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 4, 2019 14:36:16 GMT -5
With all due respect, this is all just a bunch of wanking. Fr Boroughs and the Trustees make these decisions. I have a theory that he was sold a bill of goods by AD Pine and some others who had the harebrained idea of scheduling a bunch of FBS schools when we were getting our asses handed to us by PL schools. Do you know why we had that run in the 80s? Two reasons: Fr Brooks and Edward Bennett Williams, two very serious individuals who knew what it takes to win. EBW flew out to Ohio in his private plane to pick up Rick Carter. That kind of thing can make an impression. Do you really think it enhances our "brand" to to see our players get beat up by bigger, stronger, faster, and more talented FBS players? I heard Fr. Brooks state the obvious: It is much easier to raise money from alums when the fb team is 10 and 0 rather than 0 and 10. His comment was greeted with knowing, appreciative mild laughter. The 80's fb teams were there to both help raise much needed money for the school and serve as a positive, more acceptable transition to deemphasize to non- scholarship football. And then? And now, the present administration apparently is following the old dictum of keeping the alumni sullen but not mutinous. Those Jesuits are something else. LoveHC The sullen but not mutinous alumni will file into the stadium directly behind the procession of the flagellants.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 4, 2019 15:15:31 GMT -5
I don't know what it is but the whole Brooks/Big East/Dropping Scholarships story fascinates me. Very rare to see a program at the top of its game and give it all away. Can't think of another example (maybe University of Chicago back in the day). One thing I've never seen the answer to...Why did Brooks feel the need to do this? Was Holy Cross on the brink of an epic scandal? Why couldn't football have just stayed it's course and played on with great players who were also great students? Was it just as simple as Harvard et al just convincing Brooks to be like them? It's a great story. That's all....on to UNH. Ch 10 'The Shape of the Third Holy Cross, 1968 - 1972' p 432 forward relates the issues with athletics including infractions self reported to the NCAA. I wonder if Fr K would consider the Crusader identity thing the beginning of a Fourth Holy Cross era. I remember being told or reading that when Father Brooks came into office in 1970 the endowment was only about 2.5 million and the college operated on short term loans between tuition receipts. Those figures could be way off, I could have misunderstood, but perhaps like others in the generation that lived through the depression, Fr. Brooks remembered the leaner days and was dutifully cautious about the financial commitment of the Big East and Big Time 1-A football, whereas the larger BC did not have to be as cautious because of their greater number of tuitions to spread the cost over, or was in better financial shape when these decisions had to be made. I don't discount any mission oriented preferences for HC to excel as a small liberal arts college, but wonder if finances weighed on Father Brooks, also.
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 4, 2019 15:43:56 GMT -5
Ch 10 'The Shape of the Third Holy Cross, 1968 - 1972' p 432 forward relates the issues with athletics including infractions self reported to the NCAA. I wonder if Fr K would consider the Crusader identity thing the beginning of a Fourth Holy Cross era. I remember being told or reading that when Father Brooks came into office in 1970 the endowment was only about 2.5 million and the college operated on short term loans between tuition receipts. Those figures could be way off, I could have misunderstood, but perhaps like others in the generation that lived through the depression, Fr. Brooks remembered the leaner days and was dutifully cautious about the financial commitment of the Big East and Big Time 1-A football, whereas the larger BC did not have to be as cautious because of their greater number of tuitions to spread the cost over, or was in better financial shape when these decisions had to be made. I don't discount any mission oriented preferences for HC to excel as a small liberal arts college, but wonder if finances weighed on Father Brooks, also. Beginning on p 452 there are a series of charts starting with Endowment and Similar Funds, from 1972 -1994. Fr K states that the endowment dropped from $7.1M to $6.2M from '72-'75 The other charts are Operating Budgets & Tuition, Room & Board Costs for the same period. Another chart tracks T/R&B vs Inflation from 1961-1991.
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Post by HC92 on Jan 1, 2020 9:48:27 GMT -5
Okay---I was just trying to help you support your point that Navy was possibly the worst team in FBS. Good to see you backtracking now. #75, by definition, would be an average FBS team. After going through the entire FBS roster which now includes (UMASS, Coastal Carolina, Charlotte, WKU, and other teams that have no business being there), I will say that Navy will be right around 100 out of 130. Considering some of these teams that are in the FBS these days, that is pretty awful to me. Amazing ascent by the Mids over the course of the season. They started as the worst team in FBS while they played us, then climbed up to 100 soon thereafter and finished the season 11-2 and in the top 25.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 1, 2020 14:48:15 GMT -5
Longsuffering - HC was invited to and turned down the Big East in 1978. Big East football, however, wasn't formed until 1991. So whether or not Fr. B had taken the "red pill", I-A football was never in the cards. We would basically be following the Villanova/Georgetown model for football. UCONN was obviously also in the Big East but I-AA in football until 1999.
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