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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 19:44:17 GMT -5
Really? You think 2019 UNH had more talent than 2006 UNH? Ricky Santos and David Ball broke every record in the FCS during those years.
Maybe, it's just the obsession with the Spread without the personnel to support it. I don't know.... Product on the offensive side of the ball looked pretty poor.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 8, 2019 20:17:03 GMT -5
It sounds like this must be a great time to be a good HS football player: there are many more college scholarships available and there are fewer good players competing for them.
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Post by gks on Sept 8, 2019 20:24:54 GMT -5
-More FBS schools than 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Kids want to be labeled as "FBS Player". -Ivies are throwing around money like it's going out of style and with unlimited rosters they can take away talent that would have gone PL -More FCS schools with scholarships
Talent number probably the same but the players have more options.
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Post by deep Purple on Sept 8, 2019 21:03:13 GMT -5
Really? You think 2019 UNH had more talent than 2006 UNH? Ricky Santos and David Ball broke every record in the FCS during those years. Maybe, it's just the obsession with the Spread without the personnel to support it. I don't know.... Product on the offensive side of the ball looked pretty poor. New Hampshire football is New Hampshire football. Some years are better than others but they still have 63 scholarships and redshirts. They're a good football team.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 8, 2019 21:16:12 GMT -5
NEC 3-0 against the PL NEC 2-2 against Division II opponents I know it's easy to have a bias towards the "time that you played", but has the talent level severely dropped across the FCS? After watching the UNH game, I was kinda blown away with how inept both offenses were (schematics, offensive weapons, overall talent, speed, execution, competitive spirit, etc). Since it's happening in the PL and in the CAA, is this a byproduct of less kids playing high school football? Is it harder to land the Steve Silva's, Ari Confessor's, Dom Randolph's, etc because those type of players are drawn into Ivy and lower tier FBS since it has expanded greatly in the past 10 years? The bottom of the Ivy League is certainly much stronger than it was in 2010. This could be one area where our lunch is getting eaten, not to mention the rapid expansion of new FCS and lower-level FBS programs in the south. All the while HS participation is down, reducing the overall pool of prospects.
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Post by HC16 on Sept 8, 2019 21:21:12 GMT -5
At least one dedicated national FCS writer agrees with you (and gives credit to HC as opposed to blaming UNH for giving it away).
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 8, 2019 21:22:00 GMT -5
Really? You think 2019 UNH had more talent than 2006 UNH? Ricky Santos and David Ball broke every record in the FCS during those years. Maybe, it's just the obsession with the Spread without the personnel to support it. I don't know.... Product on the offensive side of the ball looked pretty poor. New Hampshire football is New Hampshire football. Some years are better than others but they still have 63 scholarships and redshirts. They're a good football team. I would be very surprised if UNH sniffs the playoffs this year based on yesterday. While certainly still a VERY SOLID win for us, the Wildcats are definitely down compared to past years. They had an awesome run starting with Santos in 2005. This isnt the same level of UNH football we saw when they beat FBS teams five straight years and made the playoffs 12 straight times. Heck of a run they had but its over...at least for now.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 8, 2019 21:25:10 GMT -5
Brian McLaughlin probably knows more about this years UNH team than me. Maybe they'll turn out to be a +.500 CAA team after all but that would surprise me this season.
We are definitely a PL title contender, if not the current favorite by default.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 8, 2019 22:34:46 GMT -5
I can contribute this: From the stands HC looked slower and more tentative than our good teams did. I was comparing this game to a Saturday twilight game HC played at UMass shortly before the Minutemen moved up from FCS to FBS. That team rolled over HC and I bet they would roll over either team yesterday and possibly roll over the current UMass FBS team.
There is something to the talent level dropping. Maybe the CTE issue is restricting football participation across the board.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 8, 2019 22:50:55 GMT -5
Since it's happening in the PL and in the CAA, is this a byproduct of less kids playing high school football? Is it harder to land the Steve Silva's, Ari Confessor's, Dom Randolph's, etc because those type of players are drawn into Ivy and lower tier FBS since it has expanded greatly in the past 10 years? I think that this is missing the forest for the trees. Football participation is down 3%, but there are more kids in schools than ever before. Participation is actually higher than where it was in 1999-00. Putting aside the limited visibility of the PL, the real issue is that the PL has lost its traditional recruiting base. With the exception of Georgetown (which could never penetrate the PA/NJ/NY market), the PL was a reliable choice for mid-Atlantic kids who were not going to Penn State and weren't inclined to go to the Ivies. Now, with fewer graduates in the region, they are increasingly going to NEC schools, to out of region programs like Richmond and JMU or even to lower tier I-A programs like FAU or Coastal Carolina. Coastal's roster features kids from Malden, Dorchester, and a redshirt from Staten Island. Today's Dominic Randolph is as likely to end up at Old Dominion as Holy Cross. Which brings us to...redshirting. When Pioneer schools are seeing 70-75 % of its team going through a redshirt year and the PL continues to put its head in the sand, know that kids today see a redshirt as a necessary step to be a better player by year five. Out of conference results seem to bear this out.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 8, 2019 22:58:11 GMT -5
NEC 3-0 against the PL NEC 2-2 against Division II opponents Central Conn struggled last night with Merrimack needing a field goal with eight seconds left to win. Central had beaten Fordham last weekend. Merrimack is in their league now, or will be. Same w/LIU (formerly CW Post), who played SD State yesterday.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 9, 2019 4:51:09 GMT -5
"✔ @brianmacwriter
It's official ... @hcrossfb with a big-time win over the CAA's New Hampshire. UNH looking strong this year so this was no small feat for the Crusaders."
NO. UNH was not 'looking strong this year". In the first case, CAA had five teams in the STATS TOP 25 FCS PRESEASON POLL and UNH was NOT one of them. In the second case, UNH had just 4 wins last year and were carried (in most of their wins) by a very talented QB who is now gone - and the QB race (apparently unsettled) is between a frosh and a redshirt frosh. Finally, the CAA preseason poll put them at 7th (and far closer to URI at 8 than SBU at 6).
Their schedule opens pretty 'soft' this year: HC, Florida International, URI, Duquesne...no doubt they were hoping to start 4-0. Because the next stretch (7 CAA teams) may be overwhelming for UNH this year. (It has to be a concern for UNH that not only did we beat them, but we looked as fast or faster out on the field.)
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Post by deep Purple on Sept 9, 2019 5:49:53 GMT -5
I can contribute this: From the stands HC looked slower and more tentative than our good teams did. I was comparing this game to a Saturday twilight game HC played at UMass shortly before the Minutemen moved up from FCS to FBS. That team rolled over HC and I bet they would roll over either team yesterday and possibly roll over the current UMass FBS team. There is something to the talent level dropping. Maybe the CTE issue is restricting football participation across the board. The UNH team we saw this past Saturday would have beaten that HC team as badly as UMass did. I dont agree that the talent level in college football has dropped from where it was ten years ago.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 9, 2019 5:55:26 GMT -5
I much agree about redshirting players. That extra year of development can make one heck of a difference. I am not sure why there is such an uproar from the PL to limit redshirt players as far as they do.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 9, 2019 7:48:51 GMT -5
I much agree about redshirting players. That extra year of development can make one heck of a difference. I am not sure why there is such an uproar from the PL to limit redshirt players as far as they do. I agree that it is peculiar since the student/admin process is in place to permit a medical redshirt and the non-medical redshirt would mean utilizing the identical student/admin process. (Posters have pointed out that it is simply the PL once again copying the Ivy practice...but the Ivies don't permit the medical redshirt [as the PL does] so it is a faux copying of the Ivy redshirt process.)
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Post by trimster on Sept 9, 2019 8:02:20 GMT -5
I much agree about redshirting players. That extra year of development can make one heck of a difference. I am not sure why there is such an uproar from the PL to limit redshirt players as far as they do. I agree that it is peculiar since the student/admin process is in place to permit a medical redshirt and the non-medical redshirt would mean utilizing the identical student/admin process. (Posters have pointed out that it is simply the PL once again copying the Ivy practice...but the Ivies don't permit the medical redshirt [as the PL does] so it is a faux copying of the Ivy redshirt process.) I just don't see HC ever adopting a non-medical redshirt practice. Too much of a concession to what I think is perceived as a big-time football practice.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 9, 2019 8:05:39 GMT -5
I can contribute this: From the stands HC looked slower and more tentative than our good teams did. I was comparing this game to a Saturday twilight game HC played at UMass shortly before the Minutemen moved up from FCS to FBS. That team rolled over HC and I bet they would roll over either team yesterday and possibly roll over the current UMass FBS team. There is something to the talent level dropping. Maybe the CTE issue is restricting football participation across the board. The UNH team we saw this past Saturday would have beaten that HC team as badly as UMass did. I dont agree that the talent level in college football has dropped from where it was ten years ago. That UMASS team was decent but did not make the FCS playoffs. The HC team on the field that day was in Game 2 post-Randolph. We lost 38-7. The following week Harvard beat us 38-7. The team rebounded to finish 7-4 with Ryan Taggart (R-Jr) at QB. Lehigh beat us 14-7 that year in the de facto conference championship game.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 9, 2019 8:07:34 GMT -5
I much agree about redshirting players. That extra year of development can make one heck of a difference. I am not sure why there is such an uproar from the PL to limit redshirt players as far as they do. Because it undermines the sanctity of a four-year liberal arts education in their eyes.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 9, 2019 8:48:06 GMT -5
I much agree about redshirting players. That extra year of development can make one heck of a difference. I am not sure why there is such an uproar from the PL to limit redshirt players as far as they do. Because it undermines the sanctity of a four-year liberal arts education in their eyes. What makes that argument silly is that we do have the medical redshirt.
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Post by Tom on Sept 9, 2019 9:29:57 GMT -5
Because it undermines the sanctity of a four-year liberal arts education in their eyes. What makes that argument silly is that we do have the medical redshirt. As I understand the medical red shirts, it also involves a "late decision" to do a double major and the 5th year of classes is needed to complete the requirements of the second major. If you walk in the door with a double major there is plenty of time to arrange a schedule that meets the requirements of each major and the basic distribution. Without a grad school, you can't be a five year full time student. I think that HC is unwilling to yield on the full time student requirement for its athletes
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 9:44:39 GMT -5
What makes that argument silly is that we do have the medical redshirt. As I understand the medical red shirts, it also involves a "late decision" to do a double major and the 5th year of classes is needed to complete the requirements of the second major. If you walk in the door with a double major there is plenty of time to arrange a schedule that meets the requirements of each major and the basic distribution. Without a grad school, you can't be a five year full time student. I think that HC is unwilling to yield on the full time student requirement for its athletes I thought they make the player leave school for a semester which is even more ridiculous.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 9, 2019 9:49:43 GMT -5
As I understand the medical red shirts, it also involves a "late decision" to do a double major and the 5th year of classes is needed to complete the requirements of the second major. If you walk in the door with a double major there is plenty of time to arrange a schedule that meets the requirements of each major and the basic distribution. Without a grad school, you can't be a five year full time student. I think that HC is unwilling to yield on the full time student requirement for its athletes I thought they make the player leave school for a semester which is even more ridiculous. Prior to scholarships, football players who achieved fifth-year eligibility due to medical redshirt skipped what would have been their senior spring and came back for the fall semester. They would complete graduation requirements in December. Player would not have to add a major as they were on campus 8 semesters total. I would assume this practice may have changed in scholarship era but players looking to play fifth year would have to add a major or minor to justify the ninth semester. But I dont know for sure.
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Post by joe on Sept 9, 2019 10:42:02 GMT -5
I can see the rationale, but personally I do not believe that schollie limits (we're talking about 3 more), removal of the AI, and non-medical redshirting would compromise academics. I have faith in my alma mater and am confident that Holy Cross, being so small, can reliably devote time and effort into studying and weighing the various personal, academic, and athletic characteristics of it's scholar athlete applicants and can, as it had done for well over a hundred years before the PL, select student-athletes that represent the cream-of-the-crop. I also think red-shirting can be a genuinely awesome way to allow the student-athletes in the more time consuming sports to excel. We'd have to work-out issues related to not having a grad school but here's how I'd see options offered (for football players, as an example);
1. Standard program - 2 semesters a year, 4 courses per semester, graduate on time. 2. Modified (football) - 3 courses in fall, 4 in spring, 1 in Summer for 1st three years, 4 per semester in final year, graduate on time. 3. Redshirt - 3 courses in fall, 4 in spring, 1 in summer for 4 years, 1 course plus some sort of community-based or graduate school-based thesis work, or some other type of consortium-based grad work toward a master's degree, in the fall of 5th year, graduating December of 5th year.
How would this be anything short of advantageous, from an academic point of view?
I do not think there is anything wrong with at least the football players or similarly time-strapped students at HC having this option. For football specifically, the time and commitment is unlike any other sport, as far as I know, but if there are other sports as intense it can apply to them too, men's or women's, or for that matter anyone else engaged in an intense extra curricular. Why are not all students not assured of some bare minimum amount of time for study, even those committed to varsity athletics or some other type of highly time-intensive extra-curricular, ROTC, or work-study program? HC is a terrific but a very hard school. These students should have every chance to suck the nectar out of each and every class they take, and their extra-curricular activities should be valued as much as their academic course load, and considered part of the whole educational package. They should not take less rigorous majors because they play sports, which I have seen happen too many times, especially for pre-med. We've lost (never had) good doctors as a result.
Incidentally, many students have learned as much or more about life, work, and, most importantly, themselves on the practice fields of HC. I've been blessed to go on to some great places of higher education and training after HC, but as my friends would attest, the most valuable source of learning for me happened taking some hard lumps and getting up time and again on the fields behind the old Hart Center.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 11:05:34 GMT -5
Re: Redshirt Policy. My belief is that thankfully the PL school presidents are firmly in control and don't want "the tail wagging the dog." They may view redshirting as an issue of emphasis, cost and ultimately, academic integrity. Of course, some of us in our unbounded love for HC would have us use non-medical redshirts, add more athletic schollies, lower academic standards to admit better athletes, move up to higher level conferences(CAA, BE), increase spending overall on athletics (cost to academics- facilities, class sizes,etc. be damned. cf. Rutgers.)and these are just a few of the myriad of suggestions I have seen offered on this board. The motivation is not primarily to improve HC but to improve HC's teams. The rationale, that these changes will have no negative effect on our academics are provided after the fact to merely serve as a stepping stone to the ultimate goal of having more successful, bigger time teams. Some alums like to cite the glory years of 'the 30's big time football success, the b-ball glory years of big time b-ball success '47-57), the lower level success of the 70's in b-ball and 1AA dominance in the 80's to show "it can be done." Can be done, to what end? HC has to take those steps in athletics which allow for success in academics first and athletics down the list IN THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT. ACADEMICS FIRST! Better athletics and compromises in academics (see list above.) does not mean a better school and in fact the opposite result is most likely. I have seen some of these compromises first hand at other schools. Repeat: The PL is guided in principle by academics first and many of these suggestions on this board would weaken the schools' academic standing( not silly public magazine rankings) in the view of the PLCollege presidents. And, they are correct! I realize that school policies may change as the PL moves down the slippery slope of greater emphasis on sports. I hope not. IMO, HC is quite fortunate to be a member of the PL with its fine academics first institutions. I believe that using success in athletics as a measure of overall success of a school is a quite narrow, shortsighted and erroneous view. Naturally, every PL school wants to successfully compete and win but win in the right way, maintaining an academics first policies. And, please don't cite the ridiculous, board - invented "participation model' as a rationale to drop academic standards to achieve success in sports. Obviously, I happily admit to being an outlier but I have no less a love for HC than others on this board. And, I LoveHC You are not losing the "academics first" mentality by adding a season on to a scholarship players time. You don't even need a full year...just the fall semester. Give them 9 semesters to graduate. And I'm including all sports in this. The demands on these kids in well above and beyond the normal student. They are giving up basically any free time they have to represent the school in athletics. Giving them an extra semester, allowing them to loosen their class load especially in season is not a big ask. If you're not going to offer a full summer school this has to be done. For football specifically...if you're going to continue to ramp up the schedule and schedule 1, or rarely, 2 FBS schools you better give these kids every opportunity within reason to be able to compete. To do otherwise is dangerous, ignorant and stupid.
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Post by joe on Sept 9, 2019 11:06:10 GMT -5
GKS read my mind. See my post.
And one more thing - if doing so nixes our PL auto-bid, screw it. Any team good enough to win a national championship is good enough to get an at-large bid, and any team from the PL that has ever been in that discussion probably would have or should have gotten one. For HC, the auto-bid is garbage if we think we're going to complete nationally, as Chesney says. In other words, we don't need it.
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