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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 11:15:38 GMT -5
GKS read my mind. See my post.
And one more thing - if doing so nixes our PL auto-bid, screw it. Any team good enough to win a national championship is good enough to get an at-large bid, and any team from the PL that has been in that discussion probably would have or should have gotten one. For HC, the auto-bid is garbage if we think we're going to complete nationally, as Chesney says. It has always amazed me how oblivious and out of touch the PL Presidents have and continue to be when in comes to athletics. They never do anything. The only way change is adopted is if one school has had enough and goes rogue. What a ridiculous way to run a league.
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Post by joe on Sept 9, 2019 11:17:21 GMT -5
Fordham went rogue and now HC should do it. The time is right.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 11:25:13 GMT -5
Fordham went rogue and now HC should do it. The time is right. HC did it with basketball back in the 90s. There's precedent.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 9, 2019 11:26:31 GMT -5
Central Conn struggled last night with Merrimack needing a field goal with eight seconds left to win. Central had beaten Fordham last weekend. Merrimack is in their league now, or will be. Same w/LIU (formerly CW Post), who played SD State yesterday. Merrimack is NOT playing a NEC schedule this year...still shows you how bad the PL is
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Post by joe on Sept 9, 2019 11:50:13 GMT -5
mm- We can stay in the PL for now, and do not need permission from the presidents to change our school's policy, with the likely punishment being loss of an auto-bid to the FCS and not being able to claim "Patriot League Champions," even if we finish a season with the best record. This is what Fordham did when they started offering athletic schollies, which forced the rest of the PL to come along. If we were unable to achieve set goals, we could either revert back to a conventional PL membership or make an entirely new plan. If we successfully marry high level athletics while continuing or improving upon our tradition of academic excellence, it would be no problem transitioning laterally to the CAA if the opportunity arose, or just staying put in the PL, whether or not the other schools come along for the ride.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 11:52:56 GMT -5
It has always amazed me how oblivious and out of touch the PL Presidents have and continue to be when in comes to athletics. They never do anything. The only way change is adopted is if one school has had enough and goes rogue. What a ridiculous way to run a league. Academics be damned. Surely, the PL is one of the most highly respected groups in academia despite your individual criticism of the PL presidents.. LoveHC Academics sure...they're great. We're talking athletics here. They've failed miserably.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 11:54:16 GMT -5
HC did it with basketball back in the 90s. There's precedent. And, in 80's football, too. Both on a temporary basis. Going rogue is quite a gamble to achieve a highly questionable result, namely unavoidable lower academic standing. LoveHC Please tell me who on the 80s football teams were under the academic standard of HC. This is a tired, old argument. It's simple handcuffing themselves for no reason.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 9, 2019 12:07:21 GMT -5
1.) As I understand the NCAA redshirt policy, all sports are eligible. As basketball, ice hockey seasons span two semesters, a redshirt would be a two semester redshirt, and a ten semester matriculation.
2.) As I understand HC's current academic policy, a minimum of four courses must be taken per semester, or 32 credit courses in total. If someone takes summer course(s) that course can count toward the 32, unless it is taken pass/fail.
3.) Ten semesters of matriculation can compound the academic difficulty; in a single major, one is likely getting into upper level courses beyond what is required for a degree. Double majors are more academically challenging.
E.g., for a computer science major, minimum of ten courses, the department offers only 17 courses for credit; of the 17, six are offered alternate years. In addition, there are two courses for directed, semester-long project/reading, and a two semester honors thesis, for which one credit (sometimes two) is awarded.
The relative paucity of courses for many majors reflects HC's small enrollment, and the faculty/student ratios. (Williams is offering 22 computer sciences courses this academic year, there are 13 professors in the department. WPI has over 30 professors in computer sciences. Holy Cross? it appears to have three computer science professors this academic year.) From what I can tell, a redshirt football player majoring in computer science would gain no academic benefit from a fifth year of matriculation.)
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Post by lou on Sept 9, 2019 12:12:23 GMT -5
Why do we need this? Are football players flunking out?
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Post by hc87 on Sept 9, 2019 12:17:11 GMT -5
Were 3-2 HC-WPI guys on football scholarships allowed to play a 5th year (if they had another year eligibility wise)? I kind of forget.
Off/moot point I know....but just curious for precedent etc
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 9, 2019 12:17:19 GMT -5
And, in 80's football, too. Both on a temporary basis. Going rogue is quite a gamble to achieve a highly questionable result, namely unavoidable lower academic standing. LoveHC This idea that competitive athletics is part and parcel with lower academic standing is a fallacy. It hasn't hurt Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, etc. It certainly hasn't hurt Villanova, which has rocketed to #46 in the 2019 US News national university rankings, ahead of the likes of Lehigh, Syracuse, WPI, George Washington, Fordham, etc. Maybe there are a few older readers who could never imagine a world where Villanova would be ranked higher than Fordham, but in the eyes of today's HS kids, it is...fair or unfair. Academic standing is stronger than more than three scholarships or a redshirt policy. It's a college-wide commitment. Holy Cross will maintain its standing if it commits to do so. It's got to move away from the John Brooks argument that competitive athletics is a distraction to the vision of the College. Athletics isn't a distraction, it is the "front door" to the college - to students, to parents, to donors, and to Central Mass as a whole. Offer an experience that speaks to the best of Mt. St. James, athletically and academically, and everyone wins. But if visitors see a program that is lost in translation, that's more about 1965 than 2025, or that competitive excellence is a laudable but unrealistic pursuit, they will gravitate toward programs that won't take no for an answer. Unfortunately, "no " must be in the Patriot League credo. If PL football isn't working, and many would agree, there are three choices: 1) accept it, 2) fix it, or 3) chart a new course.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 13:14:15 GMT -5
And, in 80's football, too. Both on a temporary basis. Going rogue is quite a gamble to achieve a highly questionable result, namely unavoidable lower academic standing. LoveHC This idea that competitive athletics is part and parcel with lower academic standing is a fallacy. It hasn't hurt Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, etc. It certainly hasn't hurt Villanova, which has rocketed to #46 in the 2019 US News national university rankings, ahead of the likes of Lehigh, Syracuse, WPI, George Washington, Fordham, etc. Maybe there are a few older readers who could never imagine a world where Villanova would be ranked higher than Fordham, but in the eyes of today's HS kids, it is...fair or unfair. Academic standing is stronger than more than three scholarships or a redshirt policy. It's a college-wide commitment. Holy Cross will maintain its standing if it commits to do so. It's got to move away from the John Brooks argument that competitive athletics is a distraction to the vision of the College. Athletics isn't a distraction, it is the "front door" to the college - to students, to parents, to donors, and to Central Mass as a whole. Offer an experience that speaks to the best of Mt. St. James, athletically and academically, and everyone wins. But if visitors see a program that is lost in translation, that's more about 1965 than 2025, or that competitive excellence is a laudable but unrealistic pursuit, they will gravitate toward programs that won't take no for an answer. Unfortunately, "no " must be in the Patriot League credo. If PL football isn't working, and many would agree, there are three choices: 1) accept it, 2) fix it, or 3) chart a new course. Great post!
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Post by JRGNYR on Sept 9, 2019 13:37:42 GMT -5
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, water your own lawn.
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Post by gks on Sept 9, 2019 15:15:43 GMT -5
No one is asking HC to lower academic standards so please stop with this argument. People are just asking to use the NCAA limit in scholarships, stop artificially limiting your roster (Ivy roster are almost 1.5 times larger - there academics must have taken a huge hit) and allow for more redshirting. This is not the 50s. The requirements put on these students are different than the regular HC student and they should be since they are getting a merit award. What harm would an extra semester do to HC's reputation? These student athletes are representing the school and they should be given every opportunity to do it right and competitively.
I have followed HC football since the early 80s...what drives me nuts in these debates is when CAA or other larger, mainly public colleges are referred to as nothing but cesspools and they compromise their mission. Their mission is vastly different than HC and other PL schools. Every college - large, small, public, private, D1, D2 or D3 has issues with student athletes and more commonly regular students and HC is no different nor immune to problems.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 9, 2019 15:31:29 GMT -5
Does the player being red-shirted count against the scholarship limit during the year which he sits out?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 9, 2019 15:46:45 GMT -5
Does the player being red-shirted count against the scholarship limit during the year which he sits out? If hes attending school on a scholarship during the year in which he is redshirted, yes.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 9, 2019 15:49:50 GMT -5
Does the player being red-shirted count against the scholarship limit during the year which he sits out? The redshirt policy has changed. A redshirt player can play for five years, provided he doesn't play in more than four games the year he is being redshirted. That is for football. I don't know the number of games count for other sports. I believe under this new application of the rule, a redshirted player counts against roster caps for FBS and FCS for players receiving fin aid. The effect of having a cadre of redshirt players on the roster simply cuts into the size of your recruiting class, because of the roster caps. Because of the caps, the winners, as expected are the FBS schools, as they roster 85 players on full scollies.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 9, 2019 17:59:17 GMT -5
Does the player being red-shirted count against the scholarship limit during the year which he sits out? The redshirt policy has changed. A redshirt player can play for five years, provided he doesn't play in more than four games the year he is being redshirted. That is for football. I don't know the number of games count for other sports. I believe under this new application of the rule, a redshirted player counts against roster caps for FBS and FCS for players receiving fin aid. The effect of having a cadre of redshirt players on the roster simply cuts into the size of your recruiting class, because of the roster caps. Because of the caps, the winners, as expected are the FBS schools, as they roster 85 players on full scollies. i should also add that a redshirted football player on a partial scollie is now paying for five years of matriculation, not four. For a player on half scollie, that means parents paying an additional $35,000+ to matriculate. To what end? The additional cost might be more tolerable at a state university, because the cost of attendance is so much less than at a school like HC..
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Post by efg72 on Sept 9, 2019 18:04:02 GMT -5
I am sure I am part of a silent minority but here goes
We are 1AA and part of the FCS
The Patriot League receives 1 and on a great year 2 bids for the playoffs
Conference doesn’t matter, winning does
OOC games can be against anybody and our limited PL schedule makes this a dream or nightmare for the AD in football/other sports and the coach in basketball
If we are winning that makes us a desirable opponent regionally and in the FCS, and creates 2 games per year against D 1 programs for football-in basketball the coach can pick tough games for recruiting, regional games for the community, and cross sectional games against mid majors
While we love HC and want it to be a great liberal arts offering for top students, it has slipped a notch in the last decade-still a great education but it is not in the same league from an admissions perspective as the ivies and NESAC
Things have changed over time, like all of us, but we need to understand if we don’t offer the same level of excellence socially, academically and athletically we just might be a little short in offering the students and alumni the complete Jesuit educational and life experiences they signed up for when enrolling
I don’t like the association with the PL but we are there so instead of complaining let’s be excellent in the league-win these games, go to the tournaments and make this a successful journey.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 10, 2019 3:49:19 GMT -5
I think it is proven fact, like climate change, that greater athletic success will attract more applicants. That should make HC more selective and thus raise academic ratings.
I offer BC, PC and Villanova as evidence.
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 10, 2019 5:53:56 GMT -5
What makes that argument silly is that we do have the medical redshirt. As I understand the medical red shirts, it also involves a "late decision" to do a double major and the 5th year of classes is needed to complete the requirements of the second major. If you walk in the door with a double major there is plenty of time to arrange a schedule that meets the requirements of each major and the basic distribution. Without a grad school, you can't be a five year full time student. I think that HC is unwilling to yield on the full time student requirement for its athletes I always thought that the PL requirement was full -time undergraduate student; thus the use of the double major... the recent acknowledgement that a Fordham player is a grad student questions this.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 10, 2019 6:00:22 GMT -5
I think it is proven fact, like climate change, that greater athletic success will attract more applicants. That should make HC more selective and thus raise academic ratings. I offer BC, PC and Villanova as evidence. I do agree in general (and no doubt those three schools are going in the right direction albeit with different paces and different start points). No claims on causality.
At the same time, it possible to go in the right direction after cutting football and I offer two nearby Massachusetts examples: Boston University and Northeastern. Again, no claims on causality.
At the same time Fordham is going in the right direction and heavens knows what is going on with their athletics over the last twenty years. Again, no claims on direct causality.
Schools like BC and Villanova not only have a higher athletic profile and academic reputation at this point but they are in superior locations (from a student's perspective nowadays) and offer an attractive (from a student's perspective nowadays) variety of coursework (liberal arts and many other options).
(Note: I am making no representation that the abovementioned schools are identical or even similar to Holy Cross nor am I suggesting athletics as the only factor in their progress.)
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Post by hcpride on Sept 10, 2019 6:07:01 GMT -5
As I understand the medical red shirts, it also involves a "late decision" to do a double major and the 5th year of classes is needed to complete the requirements of the second major. If you walk in the door with a double major there is plenty of time to arrange a schedule that meets the requirements of each major and the basic distribution. Without a grad school, you can't be a five year full time student. I think that HC is unwilling to yield on the full time student requirement for its athletes I always thought that the PL requirement was full -time undergraduate student; thus the use of the double major... the recent acknowledgement that a Fordham player is a grad student questions this. Not at all: Lehigh graduate student defensive back Sam McCloskey claimed the Patriot League Special Teams Player of the Week and Holy Cross freshman linebacker Jacob Dobbs received rookie of the week honors.
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Post by gate88 on Sept 10, 2019 9:57:12 GMT -5
I think it is proven fact, like climate change, that greater athletic success will attract more applicants. That should make HC more selective and thus raise academic ratings. I offer BC, PC and Villanova as evidence. Sure, for sports at the highest level: big time basketball, winning NCAA hockey championships. Being better at FCS football does not help any college. No one outside the school cares. That doesn't mean it isn't fun or that football players aren't an asset to the school (at Colgate they have been major contributors), but don't kid yourselves about the Flutie Effect from being a top 10 FCS team. Irrelevant. Just win the Patriot League -- we all play by the same rules, so no excuses.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 10, 2019 12:34:20 GMT -5
And, BC, PC and Villanova with their higher level sports programs and increases in applications are ranked lower than HC in USNWR. Actually, USNWR with all its obvious flaws is a rating system that I would rely on solely for some info but not as a true indicator of school quality . This is not accurate. These schools are not ranked lower than HC, they are ranked in different categories (national universities vs. LAC). It's like saying Stanford (#6 national) is below Swarthmore (#3 LAC). HC should be much higher than #27, however. Notwithstanding, the LAC rankings skew heavily to New England schools (ask St. John's/Annapolis at #64 and Morehouse at #154.)
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