|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 10, 2019 14:54:16 GMT -5
And, BC, PC and Villanova with their higher level sports programs and increases in applications are ranked lower than HC in USNWR. Actually, USNWR with all its obvious flaws is a rating system that I would rely on solely for some info but not as a true indicator of school quality . This is not accurate. These schools are not ranked lower than HC, they are ranked in different categories (national universities vs. LAC). It's like saying Stanford (#6 national) is below Swarthmore (#3 LAC). HC should be much higher than #27, however. Notwithstanding, the LAC rankings skew heavily to New England schools (ask St. John's/Annapolis at #64 and Morehouse at #154.) HC, much higher? That would hard to be accomplish. HC gets dinged because its endowment per student, compared to most LACs ranked above it, is appreciably less, -- so the faculty resources score is lower. Ranking, raw score, and enrollmentwilliams 100 - 2073 amherst 96 - 1855 swarthmore 93 - 1559 wellesley 93 - 2534 pomona 92 - 1679 bowdoin 91 - 1928 carleton 90 - 2097 claremont mckenna 90 - 1324 middlebury 90 - 2579 washington & lee 89 - 1829 colby 88 - 2000 haverford 88 - 1310 smith 88 - 2502 grinnell 87 - 1716 hamilton 87 - 1915 vassar 87 - 2456 colgate 86 - 2958 davidson 86 - 1842 USNA 86 - wesleyan 86 - 3009 bates 85 - 1832 USMA 85 - harvey mudd 84 - 889 univ of richmond 84 - 3227 barnard 82 - 2562 macalester 82 - 2174 bryn mawr 81 -1360 holy cross 81 - 3128 colorado 81 - 2114 kenyon 81 - 1734 soka 81 - 428
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 14, 2019 20:54:13 GMT -5
Still true btw.....the league is horrific football-wise currently
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 16, 2019 16:15:24 GMT -5
In the latest Massey (Composite) Rankings, the PL as a whole is below both the MEAC and SWAC....ahead of only the NEC (somehow) and Pioneer League.
The Ivy League is rated 4th....after the MVFC, CAA and Big Sky in that order.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Sept 16, 2019 16:47:42 GMT -5
How can you rate a league 4th when they haven't even played a down?
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Sept 16, 2019 16:49:54 GMT -5
Used the ratings of the league's teams for the games they have played.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Sept 16, 2019 18:20:27 GMT -5
Honestly, I do not understand the relevance of this thread. Is failure to win in OOC play truly a disaster? Disaster? You can't be serious! I couldn't care less if PL teams win against CAA or any other OOC teams. My focus is on head-to-head, hopefully, competitive games within the PL. IMO the OOC games serve merely as a tuneup for the all-important PL games - OOC can be fun to watch and win but OOC defeat is not a disaster by any means. LoveHC Would you support a 6 game schedule then?
|
|
|
Post by joe on Sept 16, 2019 18:28:21 GMT -5
The guys on the team certainly don’t share that sentiment, nor would most followers of the program, I suspect.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Sept 16, 2019 18:51:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I do not understand the relevance of this thread. Is failure to win in OOC play truly a disaster? Disaster? You can't be serious! I couldn't care less if PL teams win against CAA or any other OOC teams. My focus is on head-to-head, hopefully, competitive games within the PL. IMO the OOC games serve merely as a tuneup for the all-important PL games - OOC can be fun to watch and win but OOC defeat is not a disaster by any means. LoveHC Good ooc competition can make a team better, I believe. That seems to be working for Holy Cross...and the coaches and players like it. The fact that the final score won't influence the PL standingi n any way does not make PL football a disaster by any means IMHO. Saying that someone who believes that would want the games not to be played was not said by anyone, except a poster trying to make someone else's opinion look foolish by carrying the point he was making (and had not been made by anyone previously in this thread) to absurd lengths.
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 16, 2019 19:16:01 GMT -5
By "disaster" I am intimating that given the resources, supprort etc from most of the PL schools, the results have been disastrous lately.
I am not advocating leaving the PL, rather how can it be improved.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Sept 16, 2019 20:00:52 GMT -5
The PL was emulating the IL at its inception, partly to maintain parity with the IL and to be able to continue rounding out their large OOC schedule with respected and long-standing academically and athletically like-minded opponents. For this reason it is crucial to Holy Cross and to the PL schools to perform well against the IL, who represent the majority of the OOC opponents. Having the PL so far toward the bottom of FCS and the IL so much closer to the top is a quite simply a failure. Without a loss of life and property I agree it’s most certainly not a disaster but I think HC87 was being somewhat hyperbolic.
If if we are to continue to keep pace with schools of high academic standing not only in the classroom, but on the athletic fields, we need to be able to compete with them both individually and as a conference. A level of competitiveness close or equal to the CAA is a reasonable place for PL, and a few minor modifications would do wonders.
That being said HC has already notched one CAA win and with its strength of OOC schedule we can really earn some respect back for the PL, as Colgate has done in recent years.
|
|
|
Post by Ignutz on Sept 17, 2019 5:30:11 GMT -5
This is not accurate. These schools are not ranked lower than HC, they are ranked in different categories (national universities vs. LAC). It's like saying Stanford (#6 national) is below Swarthmore (#3 LAC). HC should be much higher than #27, however. Notwithstanding, the LAC rankings skew heavily to New England schools (ask St. John's/Annapolis at #64 and Morehouse at #154.) HC, much higher? That would hard to be accomplish. HC gets dinged because its endowment per student, compared to most LACs ranked above it, is appreciably less, -- so the faculty resources score is lower. Ranking, raw score, and enrollmentwilliams 100 - 2073 amherst 96 - 1855 swarthmore 93 - 1559 wellesley 93 - 2534 pomona 92 - 1679 bowdoin 91 - 1928 carleton 90 - 2097 claremont mckenna 90 - 1324 middlebury 90 - 2579 washington & lee 89 - 1829 colby 88 - 2000 haverford 88 - 1310 smith 88 - 2502 grinnell 87 - 1716 hamilton 87 - 1915 vassar 87 - 2456 colgate 86 - 2958 davidson 86 - 1842 USNA 86 - wesleyan 86 - 3009 bates 85 - 1832 USMA 85 - harvey mudd 84 - 889 univ of richmond 84 - 3227 barnard 82 - 2562 macalester 82 - 2174 bryn mawr 81 -1360 holy cross 81 - 3128 colorado 81 - 2114 kenyon 81 - 1734 soka 81 - 428 While this isn’t necessarily germane to a discussion of the PL and its athletics, I’ve wondered for a long time how and why various college ratings can classify the USNA and USMA as Liberal Arts Colleges. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Academies are turning out a lot of English and Philosophy majors. Can someone enlighten me?
|
|
|
Post by joe on Sept 17, 2019 5:33:46 GMT -5
I’d add one upside to the PL - part of the fun of playing for and watching HC football relates to the small size of the PL, which allows for an interesting and challenging OOC schedule (one of the toughest in FCS). Some actually feel that our OOC is far more interesting than our PL games. If not for the auto-bid which increases the importance of our PL games, the OOC schedule to me is far more interesting. I’m glad we all agree that losing a game should not be defined as a disaster and that winning would be nice. A win at Yale would be key. I believe if we stay healthy we can win the PL. My nightmare scenario is that we lose to Georgetown in the de facto championship game. You have to be wary of the Hoyas. They’re gaining confidence against cupcakes and their little non-schollie team and JV field have burned us time and again in the past and had us down for a 9 count last year before a miracle comeback.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Sept 17, 2019 6:16:58 GMT -5
/\ /\ It is true the PL teams can play a large (and interesting) OOC slate given the small number of conference games. While the original dream/fantasy for HC may have been a closer association w/Ivy via OOC football competition, the PL reality is quite a mix nowadays between CAA, NEC and Ivy (not to mention an occasional FBS, long distance trip, or Pioneer foray). Personally, I believe local rivalries w/CAA teams (such as us with UNH or Fordham w/SBU, or the PA PL teams with Nova are a great idea.)
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 17, 2019 7:29:58 GMT -5
HC, much higher? That would hard to be accomplish. HC gets dinged because its endowment per student, compared to most LACs ranked above it, is appreciably less, -- so the faculty resources score is lower. Ranking, raw score, and enrollmentwilliams 100 - 2073 amherst 96 - 1855 swarthmore 93 - 1559 wellesley 93 - 2534 pomona 92 - 1679 bowdoin 91 - 1928 carleton 90 - 2097 claremont mckenna 90 - 1324 middlebury 90 - 2579 washington & lee 89 - 1829 colby 88 - 2000 haverford 88 - 1310 smith 88 - 2502 grinnell 87 - 1716 hamilton 87 - 1915 vassar 87 - 2456 colgate 86 - 2958 davidson 86 - 1842 USNA 86 - wesleyan 86 - 3009 bates 85 - 1832 USMA 85 - harvey mudd 84 - 889 univ of richmond 84 - 3227 barnard 82 - 2562 macalester 82 - 2174 bryn mawr 81 -1360 holy cross 81 - 3128 colorado 81 - 2114 kenyon 81 - 1734 soka 81 - 428 While this isn’t necessarily germane to a discussion of the PL and its athletics, I’ve wondered for a long time how and why various college ratings can classify the USNA and USMA as Liberal Arts Colleges. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Academies are turning out a lot of English and Philosophy majors. Can someone enlighten me? I assume this reflects the Carnegie classification, which USN&WR uses. USN&WR bumped about a quarter of the regional universities into the national universities (e.g., Villanova) because Carnegie re-classified them. carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Sept 17, 2019 7:37:20 GMT -5
Two points: 1. HYP in particular, Ivies in general's financial aid awards have become incredibly generous (to everyone, not just athletes) that the Patriot League need-based formula had no chance to compete with. As much as turning the clock back to the 80s is going to happen, neither is turning the clock back to the 90s or early 2000s. 2. HC had 4 Ivy opponents with real series histories: H, Y, Brown and Dartmouth. Columbia it played a couple times the other three not at all. Creating other games (I remember Cornell in particular, Fitton was like a morgue) for the most part generated little interest and therefore made little sense; even if the Patriot League was not going to win many games, the local matchups still made (and make) more sense.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Sept 17, 2019 7:51:14 GMT -5
/\ /\ As others have noted, HYP's superb academic reputation and quite generous financial aid nowadays combine to make them a formidable recruiting force in football. If it is HC for free or HYP for free that is a tough one. But not every kid offered by HC is offered by HYP which means we can and will get our share of wins on the gridiron v that Ivy subset. (Beyond HYP, the IVY financial aid is generally not quite so generous and the academic reputation differences perhaps not so stark so we can and will win some recruiting battles in that subset.)
|
|
|
Post by gks on Sept 17, 2019 8:40:26 GMT -5
I think a lot of fans problem with the PL is that they seem to go out of their way to give themselves a competitive disadvantage...and for no good reason.
And IMO the PL is more like the NEC and CAA (possibly the lower Ivy tier) than the upper Ivies. HYP and Dartmouth are basically FBS-level full scholarship teams. HC and others just can't compete with that. If those teams were to finally allow themselves into the FCS playoffs it would make their recruiting even stronger and they would dominate.
HC should still play these teams but STOP trying to be like them.
|
|
|
Post by JRGNYR on Sept 17, 2019 9:19:53 GMT -5
I think a lot of fans problem with the PL is that they seem to go out of their way to give themselves a competitive disadvantage...and for no good reason.And IMO the PL is more like the NEC and CAA (possibly the lower Ivy tier) than the upper Ivies. HYP and Dartmouth are basically FBS-level full scholarship teams. HC and others just can't compete with that. If those teams were to finally allow themselves into the FCS playoffs it would make their recruiting even stronger and they would dominate. HC should still play these teams but STOP trying to be like them. Put all of the responsibility at the feet of the Presidents on this one. Going back to 2012 when football scholarships were announced, they also instituted the roster limits, the 60 equivalent limit and held firm on redshirts. It was definitely argued that allowing scholarships while at the same time curbing roster sizes was going to gut depth and impact competitiveness in the long run, and it has. Why bother with the whole thing if you're going to intentionally hamstring yourself in the process?
|
|
|
Post by joe on Sept 17, 2019 9:21:05 GMT -5
Agree with last two comments completely. Because of what the Ivies do with their aid packages, we need to play football at a higher level so that we can recruit at a higher level. We need players who feel the IL is their level academically but below them athletically. As we have done more recently or goal should be to target the population that meets academic requirements and is athletically in the overlap range between low to mid FBS and high FCS, an area that HYP has already encroached upon. .
It’s is painfully frustrating to consider how much bang for buck the PL would enjoy in football with just 2 or 3 league-wide deregulations.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Sept 17, 2019 11:35:10 GMT -5
I think a lot of fans problem with the PL is that they seem to go out of their way to give themselves a competitive disadvantage...and for no good reason. And IMO the PL is more like the NEC and CAA (possibly the lower Ivy tier) than the upper Ivies. HYP and Dartmouth are basically FBS-level full scholarship teams. HC and others just can't compete with that. If those teams were to finally allow themselves into the FCS playoffs it would make their recruiting even stronger and they would dominate. HC should still play these teams but STOP trying to be like them. The IL policy of no football NCAA playoffs but all in for the BB NCAA tourney is an absurdity that matches the PL adding scholarships while tying one arm behind it's back with the other restrictions. FCS playoffs are only played on Saturdays. I don't believe the Ivies have classes on Saturday mornings anymore.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 17, 2019 12:36:27 GMT -5
The real reason by the playoff non-participation is the fact that the Ivy League wants to place a value premium on the Harvard-Yale game. They'd rather have the league go out with that than Harvard-Maine two weeks later.
Initially, I think it was presidential bitterness over being de-classified from I-A 35 years ago.
In 2006, I would have predicted that the IL would be playing in our postseason by now. At present, its still doesn't seem particularly close to happening.
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 17, 2019 12:55:01 GMT -5
I think a lot of fans problem with the PL is that they seem to go out of their way to give themselves a competitive disadvantage...and for no good reason. And IMO the PL is more like the NEC and CAA (possibly the lower Ivy tier) than the upper Ivies. HYP and Dartmouth are basically FBS-level full scholarship teams. HC and others just can't compete with that. If those teams were to finally allow themselves into the FCS playoffs it would make their recruiting even stronger and they would dominate. HC should still play these teams but STOP trying to be like them. The IL policy of no football NCAA playoffs but all in for the BB NCAA tourney is an absurdity that matches the PL adding scholarships while tying one arm behind it's back with the other restrictions. FCS playoffs are only played on Saturdays. I don't believe the Ivies have classes on Saturday mornings anymore. Agree with what NY Cru posted. Also, the FCS playoffs extend well into December with the championship in January. I don't think the Ivy presidents want their season extending beyond Thanksgiving, nor do they want their schools associated with Midwest State U. Call it the snobbery and arrogance of academia, but believe that to be the truth. The PL champ vs. Ivy champ every year would be great. Unfortunately, that would get in the way of the FCS playoffs for the PL.
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 17, 2019 13:20:00 GMT -5
The playoffs are a (sorta) different discussion for another day imo. I can see that allowing them gives us one of the few advantages we have ovah the Ivies but in general, I think they are mostly correct in not competing in them as they currently exist.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Sept 17, 2019 13:48:03 GMT -5
The Ivies could very easily, and probably should, move up to FBS. As a percentage of their pocketbook it would be a very minimal investment for them. They're already giving FBS levels of aid and most of their stadiums would be compliant.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Sept 17, 2019 14:30:59 GMT -5
Two championships for a D1 sport is stupid to me personally, if not simply annoying. There is one champion who is the best. It's that way for the other D1 sports. Football should be no different. Alabama is 100x bigger a program than HC? Too bad. I think it's what makes the basketball tournament so compelling. It also makes the myriad "bowl" games like the Capital One Northeastern South Tostitos Bowl At FedEx Field brought to you by UPS so annoying too.
|
|