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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 13, 2019 17:56:32 GMT -5
A school that just put in close to $100 million into their athletic facilities isn’t dropping from Division 1.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 18:01:27 GMT -5
"Top" is an interesting qualifier. I cannot put my hands on my copy of "Snob Acceptances" right now so I am afraid you will have to wait to find the answer to your question. Surely you are not so shallow as to think that salaries of faculty are the sole judge of their ability or the accomplishments of their students. Are you? In our non-Socialistic society in the U.S., I believe it is fair to say, as a generalization, that, in all areas of endeavor, meritocracy is measured in dollars. In an institution of higher learning, faculty compensation is one indicator of the school's values. Also, it should be recognized that HC probably values teaching performance more than publishing performance. For better or worse, in the college universe, Professors who publish can command higher compensation than those who don't. It is not only not fair to say that, it is outright wrong. By that standard, those who sacrifice themselves (or a higher paycheck) for others are less competent than those who work for the almighty dollar. Sad to have such a world view. BTW, I have published and edited over a dozen books and have over 60 articles in journals and other publications. Si nice I did not hold oputmfor more money, I guess, by your standards, they do not matter.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 18:35:55 GMT -5
Since you said professors who publish generally get paid more, would you care to share if you were published and what the title(s) were of your book(s) should anyone care to contribute to your royalties?
And while we know that rgs taught at Mercy, some might be curious at one "fine institution" (quoting Bob 4acre) you taught. So we might be able to figure out "How many (fill in the blank) grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc?" after taking your philosophy courses.
Thanks, in advance, for sharing. I would say "Merry Christmas" to you except you've indicated in the past that your are an atheist and I would not want to offend you. Would you accept a "Happy Holidays" from me?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2019 20:09:22 GMT -5
Since you said professors who publish generally get paid more, would you care to share if you were published and what the title(s) were of your book(s) should anyone care to contribute to your royalties? And while we know that rgs taught at Mercy, some might be curious at one "fine institution" (quoting Bob 4acre) you taught. So we might be able to figure out "How many (fill in the blank) grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc?" after taking your philosophy courses. Thanks, in advance, for sharing. I would say "Merry Christmas" to you except you've indicated in the past that your are an atheist and I would not want to offend you. Would you accept a "Happy Holidays" from me? Shouldn't It be "Happy Holiday" in the singular? If you take Christmas and Hanukkah out of the picture you're left with New Years Day only.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 20:32:45 GMT -5
You're forgetting kwanzaa.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 14, 2019 0:24:23 GMT -5
Since you said professors who publish generally get paid more, would you care to share if you were published and what the title(s) were of your book(s) should anyone care to contribute to your royalties? And while we know that rgs taught at Mercy, some might be curious at one "fine institution" (quoting Bob 4acre) you taught. So we might be able to figure out "How many (fill in the blank) grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc?" after taking your philosophy courses. Thanks, in advance, for sharing. I would say "Merry Christmas" to you except you've indicated in the past that your are an atheist and I would not want to offend you. Would you accept a "Happy Holidays" from me? My publishing was confined to my Business career, which followed my Academic career. It was limited to articles in anthologies, business newspapers and business magazines. When I talked about "top med schools...." etc. I was describing Holy Cross. I thought that was obvious. I taught Philosophy at Iona College and Business at Bentley University. Prior to Iona I did a year at Tufts School of Medicine in Boston. And Happy Holidays to you! You remember that I am an atheist. I'm flattered that you have memorized my bio.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 14, 2019 0:37:34 GMT -5
In our non-Socialistic society in the U.S., I believe it is fair to say, as a generalization, that, in all areas of endeavor, meritocracy is measured in dollars. In an institution of higher learning, faculty compensation is one indicator of the school's values. Also, it should be recognized that HC probably values teaching performance more than publishing performance. For better or worse, in the college universe, Professors who publish can command higher compensation than those who don't. It is not only not fair to say that, it is outright wrong. By that standard, those who sacrifice themselves (or a higher paycheck) for others are less competent than those who work for the almighty dollar. Sad to have such a world view. BTW, I have published and edited over a dozen books and have over 60 articles in journals and other publications. Si nice I did not hold oputmfor more money, I guess, by your standards, they do not matter. RGS- Congrats on your impressive publishing. As regards money, I was making a very broad generalization about free economies. I thought it was non-controversial. I too never was a money hound. After all, I voluntarily walked away from what would have been a highly lucrative career in Medicine because I cared deeply about Philosophical questions. As regards Mercy college, I wasn't trying to disparage Mercy. I was trying to highlight the outstanding achievement of HC in uplifting thousands of its students into the upper middle class over the decades. In fact, I daresay it has been this achievement that has been the true engine of HC's success as an institution--much more so than its Jesuit brand or.....wait for it....its sports history.
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 9:24:53 GMT -5
Thanks, in advance, for sharing. I would say "Merry Christmas" to you except you've indicated in the past that your are an atheist and I would not want to offend you. Would you accept a "Happy Holidays" from me? Shouldn't It be "Happy Holiday" in the singular? If you take Christmas and Hanukkah out of the picture you're left with New Years Day only. Plural is correct. For people who don't want to celebrate the religious holidays, there's a Festivus for the rest of us
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 14, 2019 10:06:52 GMT -5
No, I haven't memorized your bio but I do recall snippets of things about a lot of posters, even those like you, who I have never met. If me remembering you being an atheist impresses you, you'll be stunned to know that I recall you also said that you worked in the insurance industry and that's because my career focus was insurance (42 years). It's easier to remember when people have strong similarities and strong differences than yourself.
Depending on when you were at Iona, you may have run into my late aunt and godmother who worked there.
I, for one, am happy to see the clarification that you were extolling Holy Cross rather than a put-down of esteemed poster, rgs' school. For the record, what you meant wasn't "obvious."
I am also happy to read that your career was not lasered-in to "the Almighty Dollar" as that would run counter to all that we were taught at Holy Cross and whatever seminary you attended afterwards. No one should be against those who make a lot of money if they do so both legally and ethically but we are "men and women for others" - and you don't have to be Catholic or even a believer in the Almighty to do that.
In the spirit of this season, all the best, Sarasota.
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Post by MeatWilkerson on Dec 14, 2019 20:34:32 GMT -5
Where was this Sarasota Cat hiding out these past few years?i
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 14, 2019 21:02:13 GMT -5
Where was this Sarasota Cat hiding out these past few years?i on sabbatical--we are so glad he's now back with us
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2019 0:06:38 GMT -5
'sota---If you don't mind revealing it, would you tell us what subject you taught? Philosophy, with specialties in Analytic Philosophy, Philosophy of Mind, Philosophy of Science, Symbolic Logic. [br In other words you're smaht. 👍
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2019 0:13:46 GMT -5
Since you said professors who publish generally get paid more, would you care to share if you were published and what the title(s) were of your book(s) should anyone care to contribute to your royalties? And while we know that rgs taught at Mercy, some might be curious at one "fine institution" (quoting Bob 4acre) you taught. So we might be able to figure out "How many (fill in the blank) grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc?" after taking your philosophy courses. Thanks, in advance, for sharing. I would say "Merry Christmas" to you except you've indicated in the past that your are an atheist and I would not want to offend you. Would you accept a "Happy Holidays" from me? My publishing was confined to my Business career, which followed my Academic career. It was limited to articles in anthologies, business newspapers and business magazines. When I talked about "top med schools...." etc. I was describing Holy Cross. I thought that was obvious. I taught Philosophy at Iona College and Business at Bentley University. Prior to Iona I did a year at Tufts School of Medicine in Boston. And Happy Holidays to you! You remember that I am an atheist. I'm flattered that you have memorized my bio. More evidence you are smart. In case anyone hasn't noticed, there are not many dumb Atheists.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2019 0:27:04 GMT -5
Mr. Sarasota, as a longtime reader and somewhat regular commentator at this site, I welcome the fact that you are back on this board and I welcome sharing with you that I have real respect for your spirit and concern for Alma Mater. A few comments: 1. You are correct that there are many within our ranks of alumni and on the Board who would choose to move to a D3 status tomorrow. I think an overwhelming number of our faculty fall within this camp. While there are many highly respected individuals in this camp, there are certainly some cancers within our midst as well including those who knew of a prospective professor's writings defiling the good name and honor of our Lord and Savior prior to hiring said individual and still moved forward with the recommendation to hire. What do you do with cancer? You localize it, degrade it and then ultimately cut it out. 2. With all due respect, though, you could not be more wrong with your assessment that: "HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC". On that note, I can introduce you to 90 of the most remarkable young current Crusaders from truly incredible families representing a vibrant cross-section of our American social fabric who have chosen to matriculate at Holy Cross given ALL that it represents. To think otherwise simply is not an accurate statement. What is missing and why does Holy Cross seem to perpetually under perform within this realm? A lack of real leadership and commitment on campus and within the ranks of our Board of Trustees which understands and embraces the fact that the vision for Holy Cross as THE preeminent Catholic undergraduate institution in America can be meaningfully advanced with a truly vibrant, healthy and competitive athletics program that is defined by a commitment to excellence in winning on and off the field. Please do not think that a move to D3 means that we might win at that level. Those with an antipathy for competitive athletics at the D1 level are not about to have an epiphany and aspire for athletic excellence at the D3 level. In very short order, IMO Alma Mater would likely take on the patina of Vassar, Bates, and Connecticut College. There is NO shortage of schools within our geographic target area to compete for students aspiring to matriculate at these sorts of institutions. ( See more under the heading: Show me a good loser and I'll show you a LOSER!!) We can go that route and accede to the wishes of the faculty, selected alums and many within our administration OR . . . . We can truly commit ourselves to excellence and develop future leaders for our college and our country. This is ALREADY happening (perhaps against the better wishes of some) and our 90-Wide Mentoring program is playing a very meaningful role in delivering on this. While selected programs on campus are wallowing in mediocrity at best and a certain few far worse that that, our Holy Cross Crusader Football program is THRIVING. Might this be replicated across all our programs? That is a ground ball BUT it requires a desire on the part of the administration to do so. To wit, I hope anybody who might read this comment and thread will take a few minutes and read the following as examples of what I mean: chuchurahrah.blogspot.com/2018/07/90-wide-mentoring-impact-report.htmlIf you do not want to read all 15 profiles of the Crusaders on that link, please scroll forward and read about Gary Acquah '14, Jon Smith '14 and Tyler Zeoli '15. Special, special, special. These individuals are simply examples of what Holy Cross can produce and they have a LOT of company of other similarly outstanding Crusaders who at this very hour are bringing glory and honor to Alma Mater. IHS
AMDG
LET'S WIN!! Nailed it ... to the wall, right into the studs.☺️ If HC was being drawn up and launched today, yes D-3 would make sense to start at, but there are no new liberal arts colleges being drawn up and launched today, only ones closing each year. We need to build on our tradition and heritage to thrive.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 16, 2019 0:28:03 GMT -5
"100 Million in athletics facilities".......I wonder if it will turn into Fool's Gold.....
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Post by sarasota on Dec 16, 2019 0:44:03 GMT -5
Where was this Sarasota Cat hiding out these past few years?i on sabbatical--we are so glad he's now back with us I didn't voluntarily leave Crossports. I was banned from it.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Dec 16, 2019 6:52:15 GMT -5
"100 Million in athletics facilities".......I wonder if it will turn into Fool's Gold..... How could space that benefits the physical development of our hundreds of athletes be fools gold? I don't understand.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2019 14:03:31 GMT -5
There is one advantage over sinking that money into the endowment. It helps keeps the endowment under the threshold for that new Federal excise tax on college endowments over $1 billion, I believe. There might be a more complex formula involving endowment per student or something, but in any case improving facilities or paying down debt appears to help avoid the excise tax.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2019 14:08:51 GMT -5
on sabbatical--we are so glad he's now back with us I didn't voluntarily leave Crossports. I was banned from it. "Banned in Boston" is unremarkable. "Banned in Worcester" is exceptional! Welcome back. Your well reasoned points ups everyone's game in responding and keeps the pressure on HC Athletics to perform at the D-1 level.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 16, 2019 17:14:36 GMT -5
on sabbatical--we are so glad he's now back with us I didn't voluntarily leave Crossports. I was banned from it. Don't remember anything at the time that should have caused a ruckus involving you, let alone being banned.
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Post by gks on Dec 16, 2019 19:04:00 GMT -5
HC is perhaps unique in the universe of college athletics......a very small religious liberal arts college that has won national championships in two major sports and a major bowl participant in a third major sport, but due to profound changes in college athletics and in Society in the last 60+ years, is finding it increasingly difficult to succeed in Div 1 athletics. The major causes are, first, the mushrooming number of colleges intent on upgrading their athletic programs thereby becoming competitive with HC, second, more selective admissions standards than most of HC's athletic opponents, and third, the growing secularity of US Society. The major resources HC has to solve this problem are a healthy size endowment per student, above average academic reputation, above average physical athletic facilities, and healthy alumni financial support. What are we getting for this obsession with Div 1? HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC. There is no interest in HC sports among HC's students except in the varsity team a student happens to play on. There is no interest among the Worcester public as our empty arena/stadia attest. There is no perfect solution to this problem. And it's made doubly hard because college are held captive to a gargantuan monopoly called the NCAA that enforces cookie-cutter rules that make it impossible for colleges to solve their often unique problems. Then there is the annual $7 Million bribe we have to pay sports scholarship athletes to play at HC. I believe the goal of becoming successful in Div 1 is a chimera. The changes HC would have to make to achieve this goal have not been faced up to and if faced up to would not be supported by all HC's constituencies.....except one, the old alums like me who remember the glory sports days. Fortunately for HC we will die off. HC's current Div 1 program is like a tumor that will continue to drain resources away from more productive areas. It's throwing our whole institution out of balance. The students and Worcester have not supported athletics because the product, for the most part, has been terrible across the board. Save Willard years, Gibbons run in late 90s and early 2000s and now with Chesney. Let me ask you this....If a a restaurant you frequented for many years came out and said that they are de-emphasizing their food would you still eat there? I know that happened over 30 years ago but it still resonates.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 16, 2019 19:52:05 GMT -5
HC is perhaps unique in the universe of college athletics......a very small religious liberal arts college that has won national championships in two major sports and a major bowl participant in a third major sport, but due to profound changes in college athletics and in Society in the last 60+ years, is finding it increasingly difficult to succeed in Div 1 athletics. The major causes are, first, the mushrooming number of colleges intent on upgrading their athletic programs thereby becoming competitive with HC, second, more selective admissions standards than most of HC's athletic opponents, and third, the growing secularity of US Society. The major resources HC has to solve this problem are a healthy size endowment per student, above average academic reputation, above average physical athletic facilities, and healthy alumni financial support. What are we getting for this obsession with Div 1? HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC. There is no interest in HC sports among HC's students except in the varsity team a student happens to play on. There is no interest among the Worcester public as our empty arena/stadia attest. There is no perfect solution to this problem. And it's made doubly hard because college are held captive to a gargantuan monopoly called the NCAA that enforces cookie-cutter rules that make it impossible for colleges to solve their often unique problems. Then there is the annual $7 Million bribe we have to pay sports scholarship athletes to play at HC. I believe the goal of becoming successful in Div 1 is a chimera. The changes HC would have to make to achieve this goal have not been faced up to and if faced up to would not be supported by all HC's constituencies.....except one, the old alums like me who remember the glory sports days. Fortunately for HC we will die off. HC's current Div 1 program is like a tumor that will continue to drain resources away from more productive areas. It's throwing our whole institution out of balance. I will argue that any additional resources dedicated to academics will create zero value and be a waste of resources. if the money is not given to athletics or financial aid, within the next decade the enrollment and alumni contributions will begin to disappear the older alums, of which I am one, through annual donations and those able to make estate contributions, will make the appropriate changes . we all love the school, but if it plays out as Sarasota suggests I will be gone like the wind and six feet under. contrary to his thinking /philosophy this will mean the end of a great institution and like Newton College of the Sacred Heart we will gift our real estate and history to Boston College and become BC Central Mass Campus think about it
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Post by spenser on Dec 16, 2019 20:17:47 GMT -5
HC is perhaps unique in the universe of college athletics......a very small religious liberal arts college that has won national championships in two major sports and a major bowl participant in a third major sport, but due to profound changes in college athletics and in Society in the last 60+ years, is finding it increasingly difficult to succeed in Div 1 athletics. The major causes are, first, the mushrooming number of colleges intent on upgrading their athletic programs thereby becoming competitive with HC, second, more selective admissions standards than most of HC's athletic opponents, and third, the growing secularity of US Society. The major resources HC has to solve this problem are a healthy size endowment per student, above average academic reputation, above average physical athletic facilities, and healthy alumni financial support. What are we getting for this obsession with Div 1? HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC. There is no interest in HC sports among HC's students except in the varsity team a student happens to play on. There is no interest among the Worcester public as our empty arena/stadia attest. There is no perfect solution to this problem. And it's made doubly hard because college are held captive to a gargantuan monopoly called the NCAA that enforces cookie-cutter rules that make it impossible for colleges to solve their often unique problems. Then there is the annual $7 Million bribe we have to pay sports scholarship athletes to play at HC. I believe the goal of becoming successful in Div 1 is a chimera. The changes HC would have to make to achieve this goal have not been faced up to and if faced up to would not be supported by all HC's constituencies.....except one, the old alums like me who remember the glory sports days. Fortunately for HC we will die off. HC's current Div 1 program is like a tumor that will continue to drain resources away from more productive areas. It's throwing our whole institution out of balance. I will argue that any additional resources dedicated to academics will create zero value and be a waste of resources. if the money is not given to athletics or financial aid, within the next decade the enrollment and alumni contributions will begin to disappear the older alums, of which I am one, through annual donations and those able to make estate contributions, will make the appropriate changes . we all love the school, but if it plays out as Sarasota suggests I will be gone like the wind and six feet under. contrary to his thinking /philosophy this will mean the end of a great institution and like Newton College of the Sacred Heart we will gift our real estate and history to Boston College and become BC Central Mass Campus think about it To follow up, based on an extremely small, personal sample, staying in D1 will increase alumni support. For many years my roommate and I have sat at Fitton surrounded by empty seats. This year I’ve seen a number of classmates and friends from other classes at games. I sat with some people at Homecoming and the Georgetown game who haven't been at a game in 10 years (at least). One of them told me years ago when I asked about that he said something to the effect that HC sports were not part of his life anymore. Another friend was at the Georgetown game with his wife and grandchildren. I doubt if they’ve been on campus since they got married at St. Joseph’s. Stay in D1. That’s where we’ve been historically and that’s where we should stay.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 16, 2019 23:32:58 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Amherst 153,200
Colgate 151,500 Williams 147,900
Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
I have added Amherst and Williams.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 16, 2019 23:58:30 GMT -5
It should be noted that there are enormous differences in pay between schools that have heavy graduate programs and schools that do not. That explains much of the the difference between the top four on the above list and the rest of them.
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