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Post by efg72 on Feb 13, 2022 13:47:58 GMT -5
The description rankings for the index -average, below, etc don’t seem to relate to the athletic bands. Could they be the comparison to the student body?
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 13:50:46 GMT -5
We're going deeper down the rabbit hole.
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 13, 2022 13:59:10 GMT -5
"Trust but Verify" -The non HC Ronnie I can't remember ever hearing about who verifies that each school is in compliance with the AI, or any mention of any school being out of compliance, or what the consequences are for non-compliance. Is it just an honor system? Without an AI, the IL and the PL believe, fear, or expect there will be a race to the bottom. BostU, as a condition of being admitted to the PL, agreed that no students enrolled in BostU's Metropolitan College could play a varsity sport. The University of Florida, 8-10 years ago in a revenue and expense report, listed a $1.5-2 million cost for tutoring varsity athletes. Presumably these tutors are mostly graduate students receiving a stipend for doing this. If one assumes the individual stipend was $20,000, and then divide $20,000 into $2 million, and it was one-on-one tutoring, that's how many football and basketball players were being tutored. There are 25+ full-time staffers in the Florida Athletics Department for Hawkins Center which includes learning specialists. floridagators.com/staff-directory/the-hawkins-center-department/23floridagators.com/sports/2021/5/14/hawkins-center-building-overview.aspx
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 15:38:36 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 13, 2022 22:14:52 GMT -5
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 13, 2022 22:47:40 GMT -5
There is no way of telling from the revenue and expense reports how many scollie-equivalents GU currently has on its roster of players who are receiving need-based aid. It might be 40, 50, 60, or 70. One former assistant coach said the equivalency count was as few as 2.5-4.5, another person no longer with Georgetown estimated it at over 30. Looking at the EADA reports in recent years, I'd put it between 14-18. Putting aside the idea whether there are any high-talent kids out there who would want to pay tuition to play at such a program, it certainly doesn't work with the Index.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 14, 2022 7:40:31 GMT -5
There is no way of telling from the revenue and expense reports how many scollie-equivalents GU currently has on its roster of players who are receiving need-based aid. It might be 40, 50, 60, or 70. One former assistant coach said the equivalency count was as few as 2.5-4.5, another person no longer with Georgetown estimated it at over 30. Looking at the EADA reports in recent years, I'd put it between 14-18. Putting aside the idea whether there are any high-talent kids out there who would want to pay tuition to play at such a program, it certainly doesn't work with the Index. Using the hometown and high school as a proxy, one can form a crude estimate of how many are likely to be receiving need-based aid. Looking at the 2022 signing day roster (24 commits!) a recruit from a small town in TN is probably not a full-pay at Georgetown. Someone who lives in Boston and attended an expensive New England prep school is more likely to be a full pay. i So I am skeptical of claims of equivalencies being in the single digits, and think the over 30 number is more likely. ________________ Re: The AI Georgetown's 25-75 percentile scores for the SAT composite for the class entering fall 2020 was 1380-1530 Cornell's 25-75 percentile scores for the class entering in fall, 2020 was 1410-1530 Colgate's was 1300-1460. Holy Cross was 1300-1410 So if you wanted to adjust the AI for Georgetown, requiring the average AI score of recruited football players to be within 1.5 standard deviation of Georgetown's school-wide AI ought to level the playing field ----------------------- Georgetown's underlying problem is the endowment is too low. Only 43 percent of incoming freshmen in 2020 received any need-based financial aid. Holy Cross was 50 percent. Cornell was 50 percent. As for Colgate, I nearly fell off the chair. Only 28 percent of Colgate's incoming freshmen in 2020 received need-based aid. Colgate did award over $14 million in athletic scholarships for all undergraduates, about double what Georgetown offered. (57 percent of Harvard's 2020 entering class received need-based aid; average award was $62,000+)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 14, 2022 10:02:49 GMT -5
I think there's some apples and oranges here. Receiving financial aid is not a scholarship in the athletic sense. Amherst does not have 80 kids "on scholarship" in the athletic sense--and at schools that award no merit aid such as Georgetown, it isn't even a reflection of academic performance.
The NCAA defines athletic aid as "financial aid that is awarded on any basis that is related to athletics ability, participation or achievement." When PL athletic departments (pre-2013) bought out the work-study, loan, or unmet need of a prospect's tuition, room, and board, that qualified as an equivalency scholarship. My guess is that Georgetown still uses the old PL buyout model, but have to bring in more prep school kids with low need because they don't have the money in the budget for everyone.
Long story short, it's not working. After 20 years GU is 24-97 in the league, of which 14 of the 24 wins come from just two schools (Bucknell, Lafayette). Against everyone else, it's 10-71. Being the last school in the league to require SAT's is an even higher bar to climb to find recruits that meet the SAT potion of the index, that are competitive athletically, and that aren't picked off by schools that are test optional.
If Holy Cross was 24-97 in the CAA there would be some serious discussions up the hill as to whether this move was in the best interests of the students playing the sport. Georgetown has enough problems right now with it's men's and women's basketball teams to give football any closer look. But the day is coming where it is either able to compete in this league, or it gives notice and heads elsewhere.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 14, 2022 10:17:37 GMT -5
My goodness, I didn’t think it was possible but DFW ALMOST makes me feel badly for GU!
All we need now is to get a poster from Harvard for all their woes and my empathy levels will just skyrocket to unimagined heights.😉
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 14, 2022 10:21:15 GMT -5
DFW, in case you don’t know, I am kidding.
You’ve been a great contributor to Crossports and I appreciate your perspective. I’ve got my issues with GU but unquestionably a great school.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 14, 2022 11:04:44 GMT -5
There is not always a clear distinction between need-based aid for an athlete, and merit aid (scollie) for an athlete. For football, you cannot co-mingle the aid and circumvent the NCAA cap on 'counters'. Once a school gives $1.00 of merit aid to a football player, he and all his teammates who receive financial aid in any form become 'counters'. The max number of counters in FCS and FBS is 85, with the FCS 'counters' total including partial scholarships..
In the Common Data Set for its class entering fall of 2020, Georgetown reported awarding $2,400,000 in need-based financial aid to athletes. No idea which sports had athletes receiving this aid. (And rather unusual to have such a precise number.)
For fiscal year 2012, before the PL re-instituted merit scholarships for football, total expenses and operating expenses for football.
Total expenses / Operating expenses Bucknell $3.1M / .377K Colgate $4.8M / .649K Holy Cross $4.4M / .260K Fordham $5.6M / .582K Georgetown $1.7M / .377K Lafayette $4.7M / .610K Lehigh $4.2M / .526K
Georgetown's coaches salaries and recruiting costs were about $1.3M. Comparing Georgetown and Fordham, Fordham was possibly awarding the equivalent of 60 need-based scollies for the 2011 season, while Georgetown was reporting that it funded zero.
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Post by hc2020 on Feb 14, 2022 14:37:53 GMT -5
The way in which some of these threads occasionally go completely off the rails of relevancy is pretty impressive.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 14, 2022 16:35:01 GMT -5
The way in which some of these threads occasionally go completely off the rails of relevancy is pretty impressive. "Something is Cooking" is one of the better thread titles, too. It captures the excitement of a program on the way up.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 20, 2022 11:42:39 GMT -5
Rumor mill re. CAA this weekend. After grabbing Monmouth and Hampton to join in 2022, it is now being reported that the CAA is in talks and plans to add both North Carolina A&T and Bryant as football members starting in 2023. This would put the CAA at a total of 15 football members effective in 2023.
HC will play Bryant at home in 2022 and likely at their place in 2023. They will be a very competitive opponent especially in 23' if not this season as well.
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Post by deep Purple on Feb 20, 2022 12:26:21 GMT -5
Monmouth is going in as a full member, aren't they?
Why not HC?
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 20, 2022 12:40:30 GMT -5
^
What makes you think the CAA would would have any interest in HC? HC brings no value in any sport other than FB.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 20, 2022 12:50:16 GMT -5
Why would HC want to join the CAA? The CAA adds no real value to HC' s position as a high academic member of the PL. In many ways the CAA is a step down. I have read more about the CAA on this board than I have read in all the outlets for the past 20+ years. Membership in the CAA is a non-starter.
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 20, 2022 12:55:54 GMT -5
Why would HC want to join the CAA? The CAA adds no real value to HC' s position as a high academic member of the PL. In many ways the CAA is a step down. I have read more about the CAA on this board than I have read in all the outlets for the past 20+ years. Membership in the CAA is a non-starter. In the last 20 years, they have had two teams make the NCAA Men's Final Four in George Mason in 2006 and VCU in 2011. JMU won the women's lax title in 2018 and Delaware won the field hockey title in 2016.
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Post by gks on Feb 20, 2022 13:00:11 GMT -5
Holy Cross will never join the CAA....though I'd love for them to. It'd be a perfect fit in football especially.
For the PL fits our academic model people....can you explain how the CAA has been a detriment to William and Mary and Richmond?
Thanks.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 20, 2022 13:01:07 GMT -5
Rumor mill re. CAA this weekend. After grabbing Monmouth and Hampton to join in 2022, it is now being reported that the CAA is in talks and plans to add both North Carolina A&T and Bryant as football members starting in 2023. This would put the CAA at a total of 15 football members effective in 2023. HC will play Bryant at home in 2022 and likely at their place in 2023. They will be a very competitive opponent especially in 23' if not this season as well. 15 is an odd number. 16 would be better 🤔
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Post by hcpride on Feb 20, 2022 13:05:32 GMT -5
Holy Cross will never join the CAA....though I'd love for them to. It'd be a perfect fit in football especially. For the PL fits our academic model people....can you explain how the CAA has been a detriment to William and Mary and Richmond? Thanks. Not to mention the fact that our academic profile was higher before we entered the PL. (And Villanova is doing just fine as a football CAA member.)
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 20, 2022 13:30:13 GMT -5
Holy Cross will never join the CAA....though I'd love for them to. It'd be a perfect fit in football especially. For the PL fits our academic model people....can you explain how the CAA has been a detriment to William and Mary and Richmond? Thanks. No, but I can shudder when thinking of HC's W.Hockey experience in Hockey East so far. If the CAA offers upward possibilities it offers downward possibilities also. Imagine using up the remaining years of Coach Chesney's Holy Cross tenure fielding FB teams that are a little better than they would be if we were still in the PL but not getting into the FCS playoffs because we no longer have the PL auto bid and just miss an at large bid out of the CAA.
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Post by gks on Feb 20, 2022 13:33:48 GMT -5
Holy Cross will never join the CAA....though I'd love for them to. It'd be a perfect fit in football especially. For the PL fits our academic model people....can you explain how the CAA has been a detriment to William and Mary and Richmond? Thanks. No, but I can shudder when thinking of HC's W.Hockey experience in Hockey East so far. If the CAA offers upward possibilities it offers downward possibilities also. Imagine using up the remaining years of Coach Chesney's Holy Cross tenure fielding FB teams that are a little better than they would be if we were still in the PL but not getting into the FCS playoffs because we no longer have the PL auto bid and just miss an at large bid out of the CAA. So.....shy away from tough competition and a better league for inferior competition? CAA would up the talent, and yes academic, pool to higher levels. You think this staff is crushing it in recruiting now what do you think would happen if HC played in a higher league?
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 20, 2022 13:48:25 GMT -5
No, but I can shudder when thinking of HC's W.Hockey experience in Hockey East so far. If the CAA offers upward possibilities it offers downward possibilities also. Imagine using up the remaining years of Coach Chesney's Holy Cross tenure fielding FB teams that are a little better than they would be if we were still in the PL but not getting into the FCS playoffs because we no longer have the PL auto bid and just miss an at large bid out of the CAA. So.....shy away from tough competition and a better league for inferior competition? CAA would up the talent, and yes academic, pool to higher levels. You think this staff is crushing it in recruiting now what do you think would happen if HC played in a higher league? I allowed for the higher league, but exact same college and exact same coach when I said football teams a little bit better than they would be if we were still in the PL. If HC had gone say 5-3 in CAA play this year instead of 6-0 in PL play this year (not positive how many league games a CAA with HC added would be) do we get an at large bid? What if we went 2-1 OOC (say UConn, Yale, Harvard) and ended up 7-4. Does that get an at large out of the CAA? Perhaps on the bubble. I'm thinking of what a desirable set up our six PL, five OOC, one auto bid for seven teams schedule gives us now and trying to be realistic about the CAA. The CAA will have one auto bid for 15 teams, right?
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Post by timholycross on Feb 20, 2022 14:00:54 GMT -5
I find it interesting that North Carolina A&T's homecoming game vs Monmouth drew 21,500; and that 21,500 exceeded the home attendance totals for Monmouth, Bryant and Hampton (Hampton's might have equalled it, but not by very much).
In other words, the CAA is replacing a school with solid attendance with another place where there is football interest; but the other 3 potential schools don't add anything to the league in that regard.
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