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Post by rgs318 on Feb 13, 2022 8:40:09 GMT -5
Thanks, Pak for that through explanation (and history). It did clear up a few points for me about actual costs for football.
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Post by trimster on Feb 13, 2022 8:43:28 GMT -5
Very interesting and informative. Do the AI bands at HC have to even out for each sport or for the entire athletic department. In other words, can men’s hoop sign 3 low band recruits and have that offset by three high band recruits in women’s lacrosse.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 8:46:10 GMT -5
While I lean towards just doing away with these AI gyrations and standard deviations, I would be concerned with certain schools, be they PL or IL, "cheating" (i.e. bringing in superior athletes w/o the "scholar" in front of the hyphen).
I haven't really tried to think of an alternative, but there has to be a better, simpler way than the AI, to achieve "fairness" while recognizing that it's harder to get into Harvard than Cornell (purposely using IL so as not to offend any PL posters here).
Perhaps the really top tier schools in both the IL and PL wouldn't like it but throwing this out to see if it sticks to the wall, what if there were a league academic "floor" rather than different levels for each school? Throw away the standard deviation piece.
Here's my reasoning: If a school is willing (eager?) to compete with schools within their league, there would seem to be an assumption that the competing schools are "good enough" or close enough academically to associate with them. Using the same example above, why should Harvard have to recruit higher academic athletes than Cornell? Level the athletic playing field. If the athlete is academically good enough to get into Cornell, why not Harvard? Harvard would certainly not be getting a dummy. And, whatever the standard is for the floor, it would be something that all the schools would agree to. Maybe a lower standard for some in the league and higher for others but that'd be cleaner I would think.
What am I missing?
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 13, 2022 8:50:48 GMT -5
I think you make an interesting point about using a league-wide standard for the AI. It could be interesting to see how that shifted things. Personally I don't get worked up about it since I see HC bringing in scholar-athletes who are among the best out there. But, why not give it a try?
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Post by mm67 on Feb 13, 2022 9:37:24 GMT -5
PL. As long as the schools are competing under the same rules and competing on a relatively even playing field. (Within one standard deviation of the other deviations among the overall deviations minus the one deviation in addition to the other deviations. In other words maintain a deviant league. Makes sense, doesn't it?)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 9:41:48 GMT -5
Very interesting and informative. Do the AI bands at HC have to even out for each sport or for the entire athletic department. In other words, can men’s hoop sign 3 low band recruits and have that offset by three high band recruits in women’s lacrosse. The AI bands exist only for football. The PL announced years ago that it was instituting bands for basketball, but in the years since, no one has described how these would work. I personally suspect they are not in place, or if they are, they're ignored. But more specifically to your question. If there are 100 athlete recruits for all sports admitted for the class of 2025, the averaged AI scores of all 100 athlete recruits must be within one standard deviation of the schoolwide AI. If hoops is recruiting three players with AI scores that are two standard deviations below, then these could be offset by three women's lacrosse recruits whose AI scores are the same as the school-wide AI. 'Subtract' one standard deviation from each lacrosse recruit and 'add' it to a basketball recruit who is two standard deviations below to raise him/her to one standard deviation below the school-wide. The then President of Yale ten or so years ago slashed the number of admission slots for athletics, maybe by 25 percent, I can't remember. (He wanted more artists, poets, or something like that.) Yale was having to recruit walk-ons from enrolled students to fill rosters for some sports. I also suspect this affected all Yale sports, in that the high-AI score lacrosse player who was seen as a complimentary player was not recruited or admitted, and a potential offset for a low AI swimmer disappeared. A Dec 2021 post on voy about the AI and bands. www.voy.com/152805/202476.htmlThis post has even me confused, because I think the poster is conflating bands for football into bands for all sports. AFAIK, formal bands were never created for Ivy League sports other than football. That's not to say there might be / have been informal bands, e.g., we need you, coach x, to recruit a women's lacrosse player with an AI score one standard deviation above the schoolwide AI so we can use her score to offset a women's soccer player who plays on the Spanish junior national team whose English isn't the best, and she has a low AI score as a result.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 9:47:34 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 9:52:21 GMT -5
I think there was a play on the word "deviant".
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 9:55:29 GMT -5
Missed that. Phreek, if the PL paid you enough, could you create a fairer system - assuming you think the AI is unfair or unworkable? I assume because the PL TPTB have not overhauled the system, they think it is working to an acceptable degree.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 13, 2022 10:04:54 GMT -5
It was my feeble attempt at sarcasm. Humor? Peace.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 10:15:42 GMT -5
I took the first sentence as sincere, the second as facetious. No problems with me.
Our resident analyst, Phreek, will hopefully weigh in. I'd be curious if there was a blank piece of paper what he or the IL or the PL would come up with. I doubt it would be the IA if they had to do it all over again.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 13, 2022 11:00:07 GMT -5
I took the first sentence as sincere, the second as facetious. No problems with me. Our resident analyst, Phreek, will hopefully weigh in. I'd be curious if there was a blank piece of paper what he or the IL or the PL would come up with. I doubt it would be the IA if they had to do it all over again. To this observer the AI is a Rube Goldberg style contraption. There must be a meeting of the minds in agreement to develop simpler, clear academic protocols for the PL schools to follow. Naturally, the devil is in the details. Peace
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 13, 2022 11:41:19 GMT -5
While I lean towards just doing away with these AI gyrations and standard deviations, I would be concerned with certain schools, be they PL or IL, "cheating" (i.e. bringing in superior athletes w/o the "scholar" in front of the hyphen). I haven't really tried to think of an alternative, but there has to be a better, simpler way than the AI, to achieve "fairness" while recognizing that it's harder to get into Harvard than Cornell (purposely using IL so as not to offend any PL posters here). Perhaps the really top tier schools in both the IL and PL wouldn't like it but throwing this out to see if it sticks to the wall, what if there were a league academic "floor" rather than different levels for each school? Throw away the standard deviation piece. Here's my reasoning: If a school is willing (eager?) to compete with schools within their league, there would seem to be an assumption that the competing schools are "good enough" or close enough academically to associate with them. Using the same example above, why should Harvard have to recruit higher academic athletes than Cornell? Level the athletic playing field. If the athlete is academically good enough to get into Cornell, why not Harvard? Harvard would certainly not be getting a dummy. And, whatever the standard is for the floor, it would be something that all the schools would agree to. Maybe a lower standard for some in the league and higher for others but that'd be cleaner I would think. What am I missing? Who are the "really top tier" PL schools you refer to. That's a gotcha question, but am just curious what your ranking is. Also, how do you compare the service academies to the rest? In the IL it's simple. HYP are the top tier schools. I don't recall it being broken down the same way often for the PL.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 11:47:58 GMT -5
I'm not taking your bait. It doesn't matter who I think is "top tier." The schools obviously know which are top academically and which are not.
Point is, repeating myself, if the top (whoever they might be) are willing to associate with the bottom (whoever they might be) in athletics, they should be willing to all agree on an academic floor which might be lower for what it is currently for the top and higher for what it is currently for the lowest academic schools in the league. That way, the athletic playing fields are truly level, not relatively level.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 12:07:09 GMT -5
Missed that. Phreek, if the PL paid you enough, could you create a fairer system - assuming you think the AI is unfair or unworkable? I assume because the PL TPTB have not overhauled the system, they think it is working to an acceptable degree. Tom Gilmore, whose undergraduate degree was computer science with a minor in math, or math with a minor in computer science, has the academic wherewithal, experience, to give you a far better answer than I. www.nytimes.com/2011/12/25/sports/before-athletic-recruiting-in-the-ivy-league-some-math.html^^^From 10 years ago. Crack NYTimes investigators were unable to break into the black box that is the AI. The problem with a uniform league-wide AI is that the academic credentials of a league's school vary, as hinted above with respect to Cornell. The school-wide AI for HYP has been repeatedly guesstimated to be 220-222 (out of a possible 240). Cornell's school-wide may be 210.-212 In the PL, Colgate is the nearest to Cornell. I guesstimated once that HC's school-wide was around 200-202. Loyola's schoolwide might be in the low 190s. . For Harvard, according to the Harvard Crimson, the one standard deviation at the time of Sullivan's last season was an AI score of 206. So if HC was a member of the IL, and HC's school-wide AI was 202, and HC's one standard deviation was a 190 score, one can readily see the significant difference in AI scores of accepted athletes between Harvard and HC. Its quite possible that Loyola's two standard deviation score would be below the 176 floor for the Ivies and even below the 168 floor for the PL. The smaller the difference between a school-wide AI and a IL or PL floor, the greater the compression between standard deviation values and the floor. It was said, and I can't find the reference, that the average AI score of all NCAA athletes was around 15r0. This was a theoretical calculation.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 13, 2022 12:09:47 GMT -5
I'm not taking your bait. It doesn't matter who I think is "top tier." The schools obviously know which are top academically and which are not. Point is, repeating myself, if the top (whoever they might be) are willing to associate with the bottom (whoever they might be) in athletics, they should be willing to all agree on an academic floor which might be lower for what it is currently for the top and higher for what it is currently for the lowest academic schools in the league. That way, the athletic playing fields are truly level, not relatively level. It would mean the lowest academic schools would have reject some recruits they could have accepted before and the highest academic schools could accept recruits they couldn't before. Or do I misunderstand your proposal like I do most things about the AI ten minutes after Pak has clearly explained them?
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 12:25:34 GMT -5
Here's the thing, I have no idea how an AI is even scored. What's 190 vs. 220? I do know from talking to TG at the time that even though Holy Cross made the SATs optional, he told me it made not a wit of difference for Holy Cross athletes because even though Holy Cross might not require the SATs, for athletes, the NCAA did require them and, therefore, were submitted.
So, is the AI some sort of combination of SATs + high school record . . . . or what?! With numbers like 190 or 220, obviously it is not that some average is 100 especially if the average AI score for all schools is 150.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 13, 2022 12:30:48 GMT -5
Here's a link to "Ivyleagueguru" where someone claims to know how that conference calculates the AI www.ivyleagueguru.com/calculate-index I would not be surprised to learn that it is accurate. Perhaps Pak Phreek can review the piece and give us his opinion
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 12:36:09 GMT -5
That's exactly what I'm saying. Not taking this as gospel but it's been stated here that Georgetown's AI is the highest in the PL with only Colgate approaching them in a distant second. Why shouldn't GU be able to recruit the same athletes in football that lower tier schools like Holy Cross ( ) can? If the two schools - all of them - want to play each other, they should have the same threshold. That should hold for basketball and all sports.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 12:36:42 GMT -5
Here's the thing, I have no idea how an AI is even scored. What's 190 vs. 220? I do know from talking to TG at the time that even though Holy Cross made the SATs optional, he told me it made not a wit of difference for Holy Cross athletes because even though Holy Cross might not require the SATs, for athletes, the NCAA did require them and, therefore, were submitted. So, is the AI some sort of combination of SATs + high school record . . . . or what?! With numbers like 190 or 220, obviously it is not that some average is 100 especially if the average AI score for all schools is 150. Here is a link to an AI calculator for the IL. I do not know how current this calculator is. You can pretend that you're in high school and either the school's whiz kid or a dunce, and no one on Crossports will ever know. toptieradmissions.com/resources/college-calculator/
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 12:40:14 GMT -5
Here's a link to "Ivyleagueguru" where someone claims to know how that conference calculates the AI www.ivyleagueguru.com/calculate-index I would not be surprised to learn that it is accurate. Perhaps Pak Phreek can review the piece and give us his opinion I believe the Sat IIs have been dropped from the AI calculation. IIRC, once upon a time, HC required SAT IIs for Biology and Chemistry for the pre-med applicants.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 13, 2022 13:10:21 GMT -5
AI "Absolute Insanity" is a good excuse or whipping boy for losing coaches to blame. Who can dispute them when the formula is so indecipherable to most.
Winning coaches master it and the other obstacles placed in front of them.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 13, 2022 13:26:42 GMT -5
Here's the thing, I have no idea how an AI is even scored. What's 190 vs. 220? I do know from talking to TG at the time that even though Holy Cross made the SATs optional, he told me it made not a wit of difference for Holy Cross athletes because even though Holy Cross might not require the SATs, for athletes, the NCAA did require them and, therefore, were submitted. So, is the AI some sort of combination of SATs + high school record . . . . or what?! With numbers like 190 or 220, obviously it is not that some average is 100 especially if the average AI score for all schools is 150. Here is a link to an AI calculator for the IL. I do not know how current this calculator is. You can pretend that you're in high school and either the school's whiz kid or a dunce, and no one on Crossports will ever know. toptieradmissions.com/resources/college-calculator/A pair of 700s and a 3.8 GPA come out "Below Average" (213)?
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 13, 2022 13:42:52 GMT -5
Well, then, thank goodness we aren't in the IL!
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Post by hcpride on Feb 13, 2022 13:43:47 GMT -5
Here is a link to an AI calculator for the IL. I do not know how current this calculator is. You can pretend that you're in high school and either the school's whiz kid or a dunce, and no one on Crossports will ever know. toptieradmissions.com/resources/college-calculator/A pair of 700s and a 3.8 GPA come out "Below Average" (213)? Don't know how recently the calculator was ‘tweaked’ but it is no secret that high school GPAs have been wildly inflated the last three years or so. I see 1500/3.9 non-athletes/non URMs routinely rejected HYP. So I’m not surprised by what you found.
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