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Post by mm67 on Sept 18, 2023 7:39:51 GMT -5
Some obsess about reputation as the only guide. HC's place in the PL is fundamentally about shared values as well as size namely a clearly enunciated academics first conference. And the PL outcomes in grad rates & other indicia clearly support these values.As of necessity there have been compromises with size. By the way FWIW USNWR rankings out today. HC beats BC 27 to 39. HA!!! I personally do not place much credence in these rankings as do some on this board. Also, these rankings are important in the minds of the general public.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 18, 2023 7:47:35 GMT -5
To move to FBS, wouldn't HC have to go in whole hog on that NIL thing I keep hearing about? Otherwise, wouldn't they be stuck in an eternity of Spuds McKenzie/Poulon Weed Eater bowl games? I've kind of taken a liking to the FCS playoffs, but that's just me.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 7:49:06 GMT -5
Actually I think these are healthy “what if” conversations for a message board. Nobody is listenining and some of what is said might be tossing things out for conversation because it is an opinion board. Occasionally it strikes at a nerve but usually receives comments that are insightful and always brings out the passion of our Crusader faithful.
We all know that any conversations about the academic, athletic, and financial future of the school take place among leadership and not on this board.
I, for one, enjoy raising issues and watching how the group responds.
Go Cross Go!
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 18, 2023 8:14:09 GMT -5
There must be some new hallucinogens circulating these days. IIRC, the smallest school in FBS is the University of Tulsa, with a total enrollment that is about 25 percent higher than HC. (I'm excluding the three academies, because they are a special case.) There is no LAC that is in FBS. I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 18, 2023 8:26:00 GMT -5
There must be some new hallucinogens circulating these days. IIRC, the smallest school in FBS is the University of Tulsa, with a total enrollment that is about 25 percent higher than HC. (I'm excluding the three academies, because they are a special case.) There is no LAC that is in FBS. I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. No. Their alumni base wouldn't stand for it. The athletic programs at the academies are run by an athletic association, not the academies. See: navysports.com/sports/2018/5/23/ot-what-is-naaa-html.aspx
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Post by timholycross on Sept 18, 2023 9:02:37 GMT -5
Times are a changing in both higher education and college athletics. It's prudent to consider all options and opportunities. HC can't afford to get caught with its pants down as the result of other school(s) moves; which seems to have happened a lot to some of these fine institutions in recent months. This would matter in regards to football especially, imagine if defections brought the number of football playing schools below 6 and the auto bid disappeared.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 18, 2023 10:47:31 GMT -5
To move to FBS, wouldn't HC have to go in whole hog on that NIL thing I keep hearing about? Otherwise, wouldn't they be stuck in an eternity of Spuds McKenzie/Poulon Weed Eater bowl games? I've kind of taken a liking to the FCS playoffs, but that's just me. Smuckers Jelly Bowl on December 15. It also is much less exciting beating a Buffalo if you are in FBS.
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Post by cfrivals on Sept 18, 2023 10:48:28 GMT -5
Only other school in PL that cares about FB is Fordham. If opportunity knocked for them, would they stay in PL? No way HC has made a huge investment in FB and it needs to take care of HC!
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 18, 2023 10:52:09 GMT -5
Times are a changing in both higher education and college athletics. It's prudent to consider all options and opportunities. HC can't afford to get caught with its pants down as the result of other school(s) moves; which seems to have happened a lot to some of these fine institutions in recent months. This would matter in regards to football especially, imagine if defections brought the number of football playing schools below 6 and the auto bid disappeared. That's why I was rooting for GU to beat Stonehill and go 3-0. Losing hasn't shamed Georgetown into upgrading football but a surprise winning campaign might.
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Post by steve81 on Sept 18, 2023 11:21:42 GMT -5
Any FCS AD who suggests to his president that now is the time to go FBS with all the chaos there is in FBS should be fired on the spot for incompetence. No one knows what the FBS landscape will look like in five years, except it won't look like what it looks like now. Not only can they not see the light at the end of the tunnel, they can't even find the tunnel. Enjoyed the thread but this statement is way off and not by a little. Its off 30.763 Million between the Patriot and the MAC. Patriot League by tax form 990 $5.240M projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/search?q=Patriot+LeagueThe CAA with football is twice that of the Patriot. For example MAC $35.963M projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/search?q=Mid+American+Athletic+Conference
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 11:55:32 GMT -5
Some obsess about reputation as the only guide. HC's place in the PL is fundamentally about shared values as well as size namely a clearly enunciated academics first conference. And the PL outcomes in grad rates & other indicia clearly support these values.As of necessity there have been compromises with size. By the way FWIW USNWR rankings out today. HC beats BC 27 to 39. HA!!! I personally do not place much credence in these rankings as do some on this board. Also, these rankings are important in the minds of the general public. And how much money was given for those USNWR rankings??? Are they still doing that?
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Post by mm67 on Sept 18, 2023 11:58:27 GMT -5
Winning breeds greater emphasis on winning. Big investment in FB, winning places HC beyond the PL, alums scream for more & come up w/ delusional rationales, more money, more pressure, more scholarships & reshaping academic/athletic policies & on. I don't understand the motivations of some. To be sure the whole damn enterprise is a slippery slope, IMO.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 18, 2023 12:14:09 GMT -5
I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. No. Their alumni base wouldn't stand for it. The athletic programs at the academies are run by an athletic association, not the academies. See: navysports.com/sports/2018/5/23/ot-what-is-naaa-html.aspxI dunno....I think Army and Navy joining the PL for football down the road is much more in play than it was before the NIL-era came about. Not that it matters in their decision, but having seen both Navy and Army play this year, I think HC is bettah than both right now....we'll obviously see this play out at Army later this season. Overall point being, the football talent at Army and Navy is much closer to FCS-level than it is to SEC, B1G, ACC etc.....the decision to go PL for football may ultimately be made for them.
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Post by gks on Sept 18, 2023 12:23:00 GMT -5
Winning breeds greater emphasis on winning. Big investment in FB, winning places HC beyond the PL, alums scream for more & come up w/ delusional rationales, more money, more pressure, more scholarships & reshaping academic/athletic policies & on. I don't understand the motivations of some. To be sure the whole damn enterprise is a slippery slope, IMO. Is this an argument for losing?
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 18, 2023 16:31:56 GMT -5
There must be some new hallucinogens circulating these days. IIRC, the smallest school in FBS is the University of Tulsa, with a total enrollment that is about 25 percent higher than HC. (I'm excluding the three academies, because they are a special case.) There is no LAC that is in FBS. I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. The academies might need a couple of seasons of futility before considering a move down. HC being ranked so high helps make the case for them that "you can have it all" in PL football.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 16:56:31 GMT -5
There must be some new hallucinogens circulating these days. IIRC, the smallest school in FBS is the University of Tulsa, with a total enrollment that is about 25 percent higher than HC. (I'm excluding the three academies, because they are a special case.) There is no LAC that is in FBS. I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. Zero shot Army and Navy drop to FCS. Monken just got an extension for 2M a year. Football is the rock when it comes to service academy athletics. Navy is not giving up its series with Notre Dame to play at Georgetown every other year.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 16:59:20 GMT -5
I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. The academies might need a couple of seasons of futility before considering a move down. HC being ranked so high helps make the case for them that "you can have it all" in PL football. Army and Navy were far worse in the late 1980s' and pretty much all of the 90's than they've been recently.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 17:15:20 GMT -5
Hypothetical
Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years
What is the play for Holy Cross
Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences
The entire staff looks at professional career and family options
Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance?
If this happens does the endowment crash
Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support
Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today
But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is
Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows
Smile but get your thinking cap on
Two- three years from now this might be a different environment
Or will it?
I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking and believe we must be prepared to support a future at Holy Cross equal or better than today!!! You figure out what that may or may not mean.
God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 17:22:23 GMT -5
I dunno....I think Army and Navy joining the PL for football down the road is much more in play than it was before the NIL-era came about. Not that it matters in their decision, but having seen both Navy and Army play this year, I think HC is bettah than both right now....we'll obviously see this play out at Army later this season. Overall point being, the football talent at Army and Navy is much closer to FCS-level than it is to SEC, B1G, ACC etc.....the decision to go PL for football may ultimately be made for them. Not happening anytime soon...unless the rules on cut-blocking continue to tighten up and make them utterly uncompetitive. Neither Army or Navy have been national title contenders since the early 1960's when Staubach was in Annapolis. But both programs are actually MORE competitive than they were 30 years ago. Look at an Army or Navy schedule from the late 1980's or early 90's -- 3 or 4 I-AA squads on the schedules a lot of years. Many 2-9, 3-8 type seasons. If the service academies were going to move down, the time was probably then. From what I've seen, they've slightly loosened physical restrictions to get bigger guys in to play on the lines. They're using the prep schools as pipelines to allow for de facto "redshirt" seasons more so than ever. The NFL after commencement is much more of an option now than it was in the past. Football is just too big a part of the service academy culture for them to drop down. The fund-raising efforts by their alumni network are nothing short of tremendous. Scheduling is never a problem, getting on TV is never a problem. They get invited to decent bowl games when eligible -- Army and Navy aren't getting relegated to the Idaho Potato Bowl like a 6-6 Akron. Go to a game at Navy-Marine Corps Stadium when the Mids are in a tight game against a Top 25 team, the Corps going absolutely crazy, and try selling the fans on a Patriot League drop-down.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 17:26:59 GMT -5
Hypothetical
Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years
What is the play for Holy Cross Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences The entire staff looks at professional career and family options Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? If this happens does the endowment crash Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ Methinks Fordham will hitch its wagons to HC in football. But you never know. Long story short, to answer your question, if Fordham and Georgetown left, we'd be at 5 teams. TPTB would have no choice but to add at least one football affiliate to keep the AQ. Perhaps the PL would invite Sacred Heart as an all-sports member. That would be the best play IMO. Marist would be next most likely IMO. The list of schools that the PL would want AND who would actually join if invited is likely a very small one.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 18, 2023 17:36:42 GMT -5
I dunno....I think Army and Navy joining the PL for football down the road is much more in play than it was before the NIL-era came about. Not that it matters in their decision, but having seen both Navy and Army play this year, I think HC is bettah than both right now....we'll obviously see this play out at Army later this season. Overall point being, the football talent at Army and Navy is much closer to FCS-level than it is to SEC, B1G, ACC etc.....the decision to go PL for football may ultimately be made for them. Not happening anytime soon...unless the rules on cut-blocking continue to tighten up and make them utterly uncompetitive. Neither Army or Navy have been national title contenders since the early 1960's when Staubach was in Annapolis. But both programs are actually MORE competitive than they were 30 years ago. Look at an Army or Navy schedule from the late 1980's or early 90's -- 3 or 4 I-AA squads on the schedules a lot of years. Many 2-9, 3-8 type seasons. If the service academies were going to move down, the time was probably then. From what I've seen, they've slightly loosened physical restrictions to get bigger guys in to play on the lines. They're using the prep schools as pipelines to allow for de facto "redshirt" seasons more so than ever. The NFL after commencement is much more of an option now than it was in the past. Football is just too big a part of the service academy culture for them to drop down. The fund-raising efforts by their alumni network are nothing short of tremendous. Scheduling is never a problem, getting on TV is never a problem. They get invited to decent bowl games when eligible -- Army and Navy aren't getting relegated to the Idaho Potato Bowl like a 6-6 Akron. Go to a game at Navy-Marine Corps Stadium when the Mids are in a tight game against a Top 25 team, the Corps going absolutely crazy, and try selling the fans on a Patriot League drop-down. All I'm arguing/speculating is that in the near or pretty near future, they may have no other options but to play at the FCS-level or whatevah it may be called then. They certainly won't be playing at a level (funding, NIL deals etc) of the Power conference schools. Not just them either.....be interesting what "academic" schools in the Power conferences end up doing moving forward.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 17:39:03 GMT -5
Hypothetical Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years What is the play for Holy Cross Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences The entire staff looks at professional career and family options Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? If this happens does the endowment crash Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking and believe we must be prepared to support a future at Holy Cross equal or better than today!!! You figure out what that may or may not mean. God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ Let's be honest though...Holy Cross had a total of ONE conference championship (also only other NCAA appearance) since 1991 before Chesney took over. They are far from the dominant team in the conference.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 17:39:41 GMT -5
Army and Navy will cease to exist athletically if they drop divisions. Way too much history and tradition
Uh-oh I could say the same for Holy Cross, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Penn, but we already bit the bullet. When HC made the decision its academic standing dropped and allowed Nova and BC to pass us. We have worked hard over the past decade to recover and are finally making a move among other LACs
Is there something in the New England and northeast air that caused this constipation of the brain?? Harvard, Princeton, Penn,and Yale where top teams nationally any given year and grew their endowments with ease.
For an old guy it is fun to address the past and how decisions might have impacted the future of some incredible academic institutions.
I speak as the voice of a small minority😇😎
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 17:41:03 GMT -5
Not happening anytime soon...unless the rules on cut-blocking continue to tighten up and make them utterly uncompetitive. Neither Army or Navy have been national title contenders since the early 1960's when Staubach was in Annapolis. But both programs are actually MORE competitive than they were 30 years ago. Look at an Army or Navy schedule from the late 1980's or early 90's -- 3 or 4 I-AA squads on the schedules a lot of years. Many 2-9, 3-8 type seasons. If the service academies were going to move down, the time was probably then. From what I've seen, they've slightly loosened physical restrictions to get bigger guys in to play on the lines. They're using the prep schools as pipelines to allow for de facto "redshirt" seasons more so than ever. The NFL after commencement is much more of an option now than it was in the past. Football is just too big a part of the service academy culture for them to drop down. The fund-raising efforts by their alumni network are nothing short of tremendous. Scheduling is never a problem, getting on TV is never a problem. They get invited to decent bowl games when eligible -- Army and Navy aren't getting relegated to the Idaho Potato Bowl like a 6-6 Akron. Go to a game at Navy-Marine Corps Stadium when the Mids are in a tight game against a Top 25 team, the Corps going absolutely crazy, and try selling the fans on a Patriot League drop-down. All I'm arguing/speculating is that in the near or pretty near future, they may have no other options but to play at the FCS-level or whatevah it may be called then. They certainly won't be playing at a level (funding, NIL deals etc) of the Power conference schools. Not just them either.....be interesting what "academic" schools in the Power conferences end up doing moving forward. I get what you're saying. I believe you're right in that they won't be in whatever the "top division" turns out to be. However, I think they will end up in roughly the same tier as the likes of BC, Pitt, Wake Forest, Duke, Tulane, Rice and the like when everything shakes out.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 17:44:44 GMT -5
Hypothetical
Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years
What is the play for Holy Cross Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences The entire staff looks at professional career and family options Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? If this happens does the endowment crash Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ Methinks Fordham will hitch its wagons to HC in football. But you never know. Long story short, to answer your question, if Fordham and Georgetown left, we'd be at 5 teams. TPTB would have no choice but to add at least one football affiliate to keep the AQ. Perhaps the PL would invite Sacred Heart as an all-sports member. That would be the best play IMO. Marist would be next most likely IMO. The list of schools that the PL would want AND who would actually join if invited is likely a very small one. Respectfully to those schools they aren't academic institutions that resemble others in the league, with or without the potential departures. I would find those and most NE options unacceptable The league would need to poach from above
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