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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 17:46:39 GMT -5
Hypothetical Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years What is the play for Holy Cross Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences The entire staff looks at professional career and family options Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? If this happens does the endowment crash Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking and believe we must be prepared to support a future at Holy Cross equal or better than today!!! You figure out what that may or may not mean. God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ Let's be honest though...Holy Cross had a total of ONE conference championship (also only other NCAA appearance) since 1991 before Chesney took over. They are far from the dominant team in the conference. What a great voice for comic relief We are in a new world until it no longer exists
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 18, 2023 17:47:18 GMT -5
What intrigues me is a possible fracture of FBS into 2 divisions. The ACC, Big 12, Big 10, and SEC in one division and everybody else in another. The American and MWC are positioned well but Sun Belt and MAC seem a bit precarious. Perhaps the top teams in FCS join with the Sun Belt and MAC in an in-between level.
Rather than the Academies dropping down, perhaps some of their opponents exist at a new level. There could be a cap on NIL or something like that in the second tier division. Say it's Division 1-A, 1-AA, and then FCS. This would keep the Academies and the MAC schools in the mix.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 18, 2023 17:49:04 GMT -5
Not happening anytime soon...unless the rules on cut-blocking continue to tighten up and make them utterly uncompetitive. Neither Army or Navy have been national title contenders since the early 1960's when Staubach was in Annapolis. But both programs are actually MORE competitive than they were 30 years ago. Look at an Army or Navy schedule from the late 1980's or early 90's -- 3 or 4 I-AA squads on the schedules a lot of years. Many 2-9, 3-8 type seasons. If the service academies were going to move down, the time was probably then. From what I've seen, they've slightly loosened physical restrictions to get bigger guys in to play on the lines. They're using the prep schools as pipelines to allow for de facto "redshirt" seasons more so than ever. The NFL after commencement is much more of an option now than it was in the past. Football is just too big a part of the service academy culture for them to drop down. The fund-raising efforts by their alumni network are nothing short of tremendous. Scheduling is never a problem, getting on TV is never a problem. They get invited to decent bowl games when eligible -- Army and Navy aren't getting relegated to the Idaho Potato Bowl like a 6-6 Akron. Go to a game at Navy-Marine Corps Stadium when the Mids are in a tight game against a Top 25 team, the Corps going absolutely crazy, and try selling the fans on a Patriot League drop-down. All I'm arguing/speculating is that in the near or pretty near future, they may have no other options but to play at the FCS-level or whatevah it may be called then. They certainly won't be playing at a level (funding, NIL deals etc) of the Power conference schools. Not just them either.....be interesting what "academic" schools in the Power conferences end up doing moving forward. Spot on and we should be softly recruiting potential candidates today
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 18, 2023 17:58:17 GMT -5
No, the academies are never giving up playing ND or Syracuse to play at Cooper Field, that's a given. But The academies will not drop football to PL level for two reasons: the visibility of the CBS contract and, perhaps more importantly, what a friend of mine in the military called the hallway conversation. No Army four star wants to walk down the halls of the Pentagon and get razzed by a four star in the Air Force telling him that West Point cadets aren't tough enough to compete, but at USAFA, they are. The brass doesn't care much about basketball or field hockey, but success in football is very visible in the services and deemphasis is not an option.
Putting that aside, what if the AAC asks Army and Navy to come in for all sports? AFA does it in the Mountain West, albeit not very successfully. If the money is there, it may be an option.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 18:04:41 GMT -5
Army and Navy will cease to exist athletically if they drop divisions. Way too much history and tradition Uh-oh I could say the same for Holy Cross, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Penn, but we already bit the bullet. When HC made the decision its academic standing dropped and allowed Nova and BC to pass us. We have worked hard over the past decade to recover and are finally making a move among other LACs Is there something in the New England and northeast air that caused this constipation of the brain?? Harvard, Princeton, Penn,and Yale where top teams nationally any given year and grew their endowments with ease. For an old guy it is fun to address the past and how decisions might have impacted the future of some incredible academic institutions. I speak as the voice of a small minority😇😎 Maybe right with regards to BC. With regards to Villanova, their ascent has been more recent. Even when I was looking at colleges in 2005, Villanova was definitely a less prestigious acceptance letter than was Holy Cross. You could say same about Northeastern and BU. Both were below HC's level of academic reputation 20 years ago and both are likely ahead of us now in whatever ferkakta rankings people look at. One thing I find interesting about comparing HC to BC, when it comes to academics and admissions. It always seemed that BC was much more known in and around metro NYC than was Holy Cross. It was much more common for HC to be a "safety school" for BC than vice versa among kids applying out of HS around here. But in Massachusetts, I found it was more even. Both schools about equally regarded. And it seemed like just as many people chose HC over BC as did the opposite. Whereas, if you came out of a Catholic HS in NYC in 2005 and chose Holy Cross over Boston College, people would ask you, "why did you make that choice? They must've given you a whole lot of scholarship money to make that decision." Like it was unheard of.
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mainejeff
Climbing Mt. St. James
UMaine Sports Forum: https://umainesports.freeforums.net
Posts: 77
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Post by mainejeff on Sept 18, 2023 18:10:02 GMT -5
What would Holy Cross do if offered all-sports membership in the CAA? What about football only membership in the CAA and other sports in AE?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 18, 2023 18:22:42 GMT -5
What would Holy Cross do if offered all-sports membership in the CAA? What about football only membership in the CAA and other sports in AE? Given that the CAA just went through a robust round of expansion 2 years ago and Holy Cross didn't even come up in the conversation or rumor mill, I think that tells you all you need to know.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 18, 2023 19:01:05 GMT -5
I dunno....I think Army and Navy joining the PL for football down the road is much more in play than it was before the NIL-era came about. Not that it matters in their decision, but having seen both Navy and Army play this year, I think HC is bettah than both right now....we'll obviously see this play out at Army later this season. Overall point being, the football talent at Army and Navy is much closer to FCS-level than it is to SEC, B1G, ACC etc.....the decision to go PL for football may ultimately be made for them. Not happening anytime soon...unless the rules on cut-blocking continue to tighten up and make them utterly uncompetitive. Neither Army or Navy have been national title contenders since the early 1960's when Staubach was in Annapolis. But both programs are actually MORE competitive than they were 30 years ago. Look at an Army or Navy schedule from the late 1980's or early 90's -- 3 or 4 I-AA squads on the schedules a lot of years. Many 2-9, 3-8 type seasons. If the service academies were going to move down, the time was probably then. From what I've seen, they've slightly loosened physical restrictions to get bigger guys in to play on the lines. They're using the prep schools as pipelines to allow for de facto "redshirt" seasons more so than ever. The NFL after commencement is much more of an option now than it was in the past. Football is just too big a part of the service academy culture for them to drop down. The fund-raising efforts by their alumni network are nothing short of tremendous. Scheduling is never a problem, getting on TV is never a problem. They get invited to decent bowl games when eligible -- Army and Navy aren't getting relegated to the Idaho Potato Bowl like a 6-6 Akron. Go to a game at Navy-Marine Corps Stadium when the Mids are in a tight game against a Top 25 team, the Corps going absolutely crazy, and try selling the fans on a Patriot League drop-down. Compare that to an HC-Navy BB game at the Hart during the BN Administration with two Naval Academy student managers in a uniform clapping.🤕 You may have a point.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 18, 2023 19:05:27 GMT -5
What intrigues me is a possible fracture of FBS into 2 divisions. The ACC, Big 12, Big 10, and SEC in one division and everybody else in another. The American and MWC are positioned well but Sun Belt and MAC seem a bit precarious. Perhaps the top teams in FCS join with the Sun Belt and MAC in an in-between level. Rather than the Academies dropping down, perhaps some of their opponents exist at a new level. There could be a cap on NIL or something like that in the second tier division. Say it's Division 1-A, 1-AA, and then FCS. This would keep the Academies and the MAC schools in the mix. The NCAA has a name ready to go, the "FMBS" Football Minor Bowl Subdivision.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 19:09:18 GMT -5
Let's be honest though...Holy Cross had a total of ONE conference championship (also only other NCAA appearance) since 1991 before Chesney took over. They are far from the dominant team in the conference. What a great voice for comic relief We are in a new world until it no longer exists Did I not state a fact??? Pretty weird that for 27 seasons to win one conference championship to be considered the best team.
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Post by thecrossisback on Sept 18, 2023 19:39:55 GMT -5
Hypothetical Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years What is the play for Holy Cross Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences The entire staff looks at professional career and family options Is this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? If this happens does the endowment crash Do disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support Remember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking and believe we must be prepared to support a future at Holy Cross equal or better than today!!! You figure out what that may or may not mean. God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ Let's be honest though...Holy Cross had a total of ONE conference championship (also only other NCAA appearance) since 1991 before Chesney took over. They are far from the dominant team in the conference. Give me a break I lost track of how many consecutive PL game wins. Put your media pass on and go ask the PL coaches. HC is on the verge of winning 5 titles in a row. Never been done before. Let’s be honest you hyped up Grooms and he stunk. Grooms only 17 points that’s the best you got? Oh but you won the Ivy League last year! 🥱
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 18, 2023 20:01:38 GMT -5
Hypothetical Georgetown and Fordham leave PL football in the next two years WON'T HAPPENWhat is the play for Holy Cross THEY HAVE ENOUGH REAL SITUATIONS TO WOFRK OUT, NO NEED FOR FICTION
Really no academic schools you can add without poaching from better athletic conferences PROBABLYIs this a time where the Brooks followers get on bended knee and beg the NESAC for acceptance? HUM...HOW ABOUT NEVER? PS: I BELIEVE FR. BROOKS HAD SUPPORTERS, NOT "FOLLOWERS."If this happens does the endowment crash NODo disheartened alums work to strip the school of all federal support OF COURSE NOTRemember this is a Monday and no other issues to raise today But remember the clock is ticking and with no plan B we have no idea what time it is THIS STATEMENT IS JUST TOO STRANGE TO GIVE A COMMENT. Do I believe this, will it happen, nobody knows PROBABLY CORRECT, BUT SINCE THIS IS MOST UNLIKELY FICTION, WHY WOULD ANYONE CARE TO KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD DO IN A CASE THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN Smile but get your thinking cap on Two- three years from now this might be a different environment TRUE, WE MAY HAVE TO CONTENT WITH TEAMS OF SPACE ALIENS AVERAGING OVER SEVEN FEET IN HEIGHT. Or will it? I don't know but I truly enjoy pushing for creative thinking and believe we must be prepared to support a future at Holy Cross equal or better than today!!! You figure out what that may or may not mean. God Bless and Go Cross Go✝️✝️✝️✝️ INDEED - GO CROSS GO!
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 20:04:23 GMT -5
Let's be honest though...Holy Cross had a total of ONE conference championship (also only other NCAA appearance) since 1991 before Chesney took over. They are far from the dominant team in the conference. Give me a break I lost track of how many consecutive PL game wins. Put your media pass on and go ask the PL coaches. HC is on the verge of winning 5 titles in a row. Never been done before. Let’s be honest you hyped up Grooms and he stunk. Grooms only 17 points that’s the best you got? Oh but you won the Ivy League last year! 🥱 Yes...I am talking about HISTORY pre Chesney. You would think Holy Cross would have been so dominant since 1991 that they would of had more than one conference championship before Chesney came right??
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 18, 2023 20:16:00 GMT -5
Give me a break I lost track of how many consecutive PL game wins. Put your media pass on and go ask the PL coaches. HC is on the verge of winning 5 titles in a row. Never been done before. Let’s be honest you hyped up Grooms and he stunk. Grooms only 17 points that’s the best you got? Oh but you won the Ivy League last year! 🥱 Yes...I am talking about HISTORY pre Chesney. You would think Holy Cross would have been so dominant since 1991 that they would have had more than one conference championship before Chesney came right?? Have* Sports, as you know, is a “what have you done lately for me?” world. Does what happened in 1995 have any relevance compared to 2023?
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 18, 2023 20:24:03 GMT -5
Not really much. But some folks hand pick the time periods they want to discuss and facts be damned. 1. HC voluntarily refrained from post-season play under Fr Brooks, so what is your point lumping in those years as if HC failed to qualify? 2. Grooms was only responsible for 17 points not the great player a poster felt would give HC fits. 3. None of this matters when it comes from someone whose main goal seems to be finding negative things to say about HC. GO CROSS GO!
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 20:31:14 GMT -5
Not really much. But some folks hand pick the time periods they want to discuss and facts be damned. 1. HC voluntarily refrained from post-season play under Fr Brooks, so what is your point lumpingx in those years as if HC failed to qualify? 2. Grooms was only responsible for 10 points (not 17)...even worse than it appears for the player you felt would give HC fits. 3. None of this matters when it comes from someone whose main goal seems to be finding negative things to say about HC. GO CROSS GO! I was going by what I thought I saw from games of seeing Grooms but I am usually focusing on what the other team is doing or lack of.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 20:32:59 GMT -5
Not really much. But some folks hand pick the time periods they want to discuss and facts be damned. 1. HC voluntarily refrained from post-season play under Fr Brooks, so what is your point lumpingx in those years as if HC failed to qualify? 2. Grooms was only responsible for 17 points not great the player a poster felt would give HC fits. 3. None of this matters when it comes from someone whose main goal seems to be finding negative things to say about HC. GO CROSS GO! Did Holy Cross not participate in a conference back then???
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Post by Xmassader on Sept 18, 2023 20:34:21 GMT -5
What a great voice for comic relief We are in a new world until it no longer exists Did I not state a fact??? Pretty weird that for 27 seasons to win one conference championship to be considered the best team. Bfoley. Think you forgot the witness’ oath-“ the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth”. In the 37 yrs. of PL/Colonial League action coming into this season, HC’s 10 outright titles are the most outright titles of any PL school. Lehigh has more total titles (12) but 3 of them are shared. Colgate has 10 total titles (7 outright/3 shared). One could justifiably argue that, over the entire history of the league, HC has been the “best” program (albeit with a 17 yr. title drought) but certainly no reasonable person could argue that it hasn’t been one of the best-at worst a close second or third. But if the discussion is who is the best current team in the PL, clearly it’s HC. Was there a long period (17 yrs. from ‘92-‘08) in which HC did not win a title? Sure. But they all count. Of course, you know that. Kinda like focusing on the Yankees one WS title in the last 23 yrs. rather than the total # (27).
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Post by thecrossisback on Sept 18, 2023 20:36:15 GMT -5
Not really much. But some folks hand pick the time periods they want to discuss and facts be damned. 1. HC voluntarily refrained from post-season play under Fr Brooks, so what is your point lumpingx in those years as if HC failed to qualify? 2. Grooms was only responsible for 17 points not great the player a poster felt would give HC fits. 3. None of this matters when it comes from someone whose main goal seems to be finding negative things to say about HC. GO CROSS GO! Did Holy Cross not participate in a conference back then??? You say the history doesn’t matter about HC basketball and baseball. Late 70s HC basketball was good. Then why did Bob Chesney take the job? You’re saying he should have thought how bad the program was under Vaas?
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 18, 2023 20:43:07 GMT -5
Did Holy Cross not participate in a conference back then??? You say the history doesn’t matter about HC basketball and baseball. Late 70s HC basketball was good. Then why did Bob Chesney take the job? You’re saying he should have thought how bad the program was under Vaas? My comment was about how some people here think that Holy Cross has been dominant in the Patriot League throughout its history. That isn't true as they make it out to be. It is a flash in the pan with a great head coach who has won everywhere he has been. Is it the coach or the school? Pretty sure it is the coach as everyone here knows I was saying back in 2017, Assumption was the best team in the city of Worcester.
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 18, 2023 20:53:53 GMT -5
When the time comes, I hope an HC "guy" like Chris Smith is ready to take the helm with the same energy and charisma to prove this is not a "flash in the pan!" But let's not rush that
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 18, 2023 22:19:12 GMT -5
Foley—please show us just what fools we are by going to Las Vegas and betting against Holy Cross on the money line for every remaining game of the season
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Post by hc87 on Sept 18, 2023 22:40:33 GMT -5
While bfoley is technically correct in terms of HC only winning one PL title from 1992 to 2019 or so. I'd argue that HC was mostly in the "desert" during that period. We languished for a lot of the non-scholarship-era, probably for a variety of reasons: institutional neglect, apathy etc....but a scholarship HC has been mostly at the top of the PL year in, year out. Both during the late 80s/early 90s and the last five seasons.
Chesney is a great coach but the school (and its alums) has done a lot as well to regain past gridiron success on Mt St James.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 19, 2023 4:51:00 GMT -5
While bfoley is technically correct in terms of HC only winning one PL title from 1992 to 2019 or so. I'd argue that HC was mostly in the "desert" during that period. We languished for a lot of the non-scholarship-era, probably for a variety of reasons: institutional neglect, apathy etc....but a scholarship HC has been mostly at the top of the PL year in, year out. Both during the late 80s/early 90s and the last five seasons. Chesney is a great coach but the school (and its alums) has done a lot as well to regain past gridiron success on Mt St James. I would say the "desert" was more or less the 1990's after Duffner left. The early 2000's HC showed some signs of life but overall the results weren't there. Those teams had big moments, lots of talent but dealt with lion's share of health issues (coaches and players). Let's also remember under Gilmore, we were mere bounces away from winning 4 consecutive conference titles between 2006 and 2009. 1pt loss to 'Gate in '06, 3pt loss to Fordham in '07, 1 pt loss to 'Gate in '08. The 2010's under Gilmore was like watching the same bad movie over and over. There was always a lot of optimism, especially early in a lot of those seasons, only to be met with frustration and disappointment.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 19, 2023 5:06:15 GMT -5
I was thinking this morning, do you ever think both Army and Navy would drop to FCS? They would be a fantastic add and still compete every year in the Army-Navy game. I still would rather win an FCS title than be 6-6 and go to the Bermuda Bowl or the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl. It will be interesting to see what happens to some of the G5 teams with the emergence of P4 super conferences next season. Zero shot Army and Navy drop to FCS. Monken just got an extension for 2M a year. Football is the rock when it comes to service academy athletics. Navy is not giving up its series with Notre Dame to play at Georgetown every other year. West Point, as an attractive independent, can pick and choose a large number of very winnable (FCS, lower ranked FBS) games, add AF and Navy, add a marquee P5 school or two, and finish (hopefully) with a respectable record. No need to formally drop down to FCS. As long as they continue to recruit MAC/High FCS types and develop via MAPS they’ll survive in FBS.
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