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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 19:31:38 GMT -5
Yup. The IL laughed at the PL going non-scholarship and adjusted their “grant” practices to increase the divide between the PL and IL. The differentiator for the IL will always be their academic reputation. We will never be able to directly compete with that and that is fine. But if we want to try to beat them on some key recruits, we need better facilities, better OOC games, and some flexibility with regard to fifth years. The new facilities are awesome. An upgrade to Fitton in the concession area would draw more fans. It’s a complete disaster now. Playing UConn, BC, Army, Syracuse really helps. No idea how to solve the fifth year problem but that needs to happen. HC is a great school with a rich athletics history. I think it’s a choice if we want to continue to grow and succeed. There are some limitations being a small liberal arts school, but some smart people can figure this out for the longer term. Look for the elders on the board we place an unrealistic value on the mission of the school and athletics. But as older posters I hope you can grant us that emotional attachment. Unfortunately our group needs a reality check. The HYP plan that exists today is to use the PL as their minor league and a certain number of wins every fall. Perhaps it is insane that we bought into it, but for academia and older alums it is a feel good league. As they say beauty is in in the eyes of the beholder- to me the PL is far less than what Fr Brooks wanted and promised but it is where we sit today. There are pasties in all aspects of life, but for college athletics the PL has served as a patsie for the ivies Do we allow this charade to continue or do we call it what it is?
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 19:36:42 GMT -5
The IL offers full grants. The IL benefits from the rest of the world looking up to them and trusting that they are the standard by which all others should be measured. They take advantage of the system. They have the resources to impact decisions. C’mon man. Is Holy Cross a victim? We have won three out of four from good IL teams and were favored in the one we lost. HC has advantages of playing FBS teams, five or six OOC games per season compared to three every year for Ivies, and HC can compete for the national championship while the Ivies can't. The advantages appear to balance which makes for competitive games and quality continuing series of a century plus. I like the IL component of the Holy Cross Football schedule myself.
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 10, 2023 19:39:29 GMT -5
I have many memories of HC vs IL opponents. I often have little fun bets with my colleagues who went to Harvard and Yale. I would happily trade one game for a national FCS power both as a measuring stick and to help our SOS/rank.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 19:48:34 GMT -5
I have many memories of HC vs IL opponents. I often have little fun bets with my colleagues who went to Harvard and Yale. I would happily trade one game for a national FCS power both as a measuring stick and to help our SOS/rank. I'll trade Bryant for SDSU (in the regular season for a change). If only it was that easy. Planning for a national game probably has to begin years in advance. But let's schedule one while HC FB has cachet.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 19:49:26 GMT -5
The school did an incredible PR job in selling the academic standing of the league to HC alumni, who were willing to buy anything the good Reverend was selling. Unfortunately, we bought something that wasn't necessarily embraced by others who knew better. If I read the Father Markey article correctly it is possible he objects to many of our past decisions.
Version2
The school did a great job explaining its mission and the long term value of aligning with like minded institutions for athletic engagement. Considering the current environment the good Reverend was a visionary
The question before us is not what value came to HC from past decisions, but what should our future be
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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 19:50:45 GMT -5
I have many memories of HC vs IL opponents. I often have little fun bets with my colleagues who went to Harvard and Yale. I would happily trade one game for a national FCS power both as a measuring stick and to help our SOS/rank. I'll trade Bryant for SDSU (in the regular season for a change). If only it was that easy. Planning for a national game probably has to begin years in advance. But let's schedule one while HC FB has cachet. That match is a simple phone call away
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 19:57:52 GMT -5
Yup. The IL laughed at the PL going non-scholarship and adjusted their “grant” practices to increase the divide between the PL and IL. The differentiator for the IL will always be their academic reputation. We will never be able to directly compete with that and that is fine. But if we want to try to beat them on some key recruits, we need better facilities, better OOC games, and some flexibility with regard to fifth years. The new facilities are awesome. An upgrade to Fitton in the concession area would draw more fans. It’s a complete disaster now. Playing UConn, BC, Army, Syracuse really helps. No idea how to solve the fifth year problem but that needs to happen. HC is a great school with a rich athletics history. I think it’s a choice if we want to continue to grow and succeed. There are some limitations being a small liberal arts school, but some smart people can figure this out for the longer term. Look for the elders on the board we place an unrealistic value on the mission of the school and athletics. But as older posters I hope you can grant us that emotional attachment. Unfortunately our group needs a reality check. The HYP plan that exists today is to use the PL as their minor league and a certain number of wins every fall. Perhaps it is insane that we bought into it, but for academia and older alums it is a feel good league. As they say beauty is in in the eyes of the beholder- to me the PL is far less than what Fr Brooks wanted and promised but it is where we sit today. There are pasties in all aspects of life, but for college athletics the PL has served as a patsie for the ivies Do we allow this charade to continue or do we call it what it is? I suppose you could use the Polar Park game in a minor league stadium to prove motive by the IL to use the PL as their minor league. I do not believe the IL or PL Presidents ever met and voted to make another league their minor league. Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth have all played the Crusaders when HC offered scholarships and when they didn't. We didn't stop playing the Ivies when scholarships resumed.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 10, 2023 20:14:59 GMT -5
Pretty sure the school and future league members spoke with the IL. And, the IL was like “yes great idea guys do it!” They used Father Brooks like a pawn. The PL is kind of a joke. I think it was when Fordham first left they scrambled and came up with American. Maybe I’m wrong. Nothing against American, I actually think schools like Central CT are a better value these days in certain scenarios, but American certainly isn’t what Father Brooks and partners had in mind back in the day. What happens when Fordham joins the CAA for football? Will we add Merrimack?
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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 20:24:46 GMT -5
Just tell me that we have a a 3-10 year athletic plan that goes well beyond financials and allows us to be relevant
Mind, body, and soul are equal, well almost equal, parts of the Holy Cross experience
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 21:09:12 GMT -5
Just tell me that we have a a 3-10 year athletic plan that goes well beyond financials and allows us to be relevant Mind, body, and soul are equal, well almost equal, parts of the Holy Cross experience The 3-10 year football plan is to stay relevant.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 22:03:49 GMT -5
For starters Status quo is not a plan So what does it look like?
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 22:34:16 GMT -5
For starters Status quo is not a plan So what does it look like? Becoming relevant has only been achieved by a ton of hard work by dedicated coaches and players over a five year period of continuous improvement. No tweaking of the schedule can generate that, it takes hard daily work. To illustrate how tough it is to maintain the status quo of national relevance, this season We're just as good as last year's 12-1 team but the ball has bounced the wrong way a few times instead of almost always the right way last year leaving us with two losses. You have to realize the status quo in football is excellence. So the status quo is highly desirable imo. The plan has to be to stay motivated and when necessary keep hiring quality head coaches like Chesney, Magarity, Riga and Paulsen. What type of plan are you looking for? I think the plan is to offer 27 varsity sports with great student participation benefits and in the five full quota of scholarship sports to get to the NCAA tournament more than our fair share through good coaching and hard work. FB and the two hockey teams have a better chance of making noise nationally than the two basketball teams because of the reduced pool of D-1 teams competing in FCS and ice hockey. Do you have some short cuts to success in your plan?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 10, 2023 22:56:39 GMT -5
If the Status Quo means Bob Chesney is our head coach please give us another decade of the Status Quo. We will be highly successful as long as he is leading the team...and hopefully beyond
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 23:22:31 GMT -5
The current plan in FB has been a darn good one. Realistically it had to catch most on the board by surprise. First Chesney produced, then he asked for a little more support from the administration then he produced some more and got more support and so on and so forth.
His real results combined with his positive personality has brought the school along with him. The status quo is great. Even the two losses this year were in celebratory "event" games that wouldn't have the same luster without Chesney and the quality of current play.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 11, 2023 6:08:14 GMT -5
I think we are getting away from the original point. Yes, Chesney has done great work. The goal is to win a national championship. We have clearly benefited from having fifth year players. Without fifth years, I don’t think we will be competing for national championships. So, what is the plan to address that? Are we going to adjust the goal downward or are we going to evolve somehow?
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Post by breezy on Oct 11, 2023 7:12:15 GMT -5
I agree with the apparent consensus that our 5th-year players have played a key role in our recent success. But there is, to a certain extent that is difficult to measure, also a downside. Younger players, particularly those in our most recent (and very successful) recruiting classes, have -- to a certain extent -- not had the opportunity to get in-game experience that woud be beneficial to their development. Yes, they do benefit from practicing with (and against) our older players and they get some semblance of what it takes to compete, but I wonder whether the lack of in-game experience now will slow their development and/or impact their performance when they become starters in future seasons.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 11, 2023 7:29:26 GMT -5
I agree with the apparent consensus that our 5th-year players have played a key role in our recent success. But there is, to a certain extent that is difficult to measure, also a downside. Younger players, particularly those in our most recent (and very successful) recruiting classes, have -- to a certain extent -- not had the opportunity to get in-game experience that woud be beneficial to their development. Yes, they do benefit from practicing with (and against) our older players and they get some semblance of what it takes to compete, but I wonder whether the lack of in-game experience now will slow their development and/or impact their performance when they become starters in future seasons. Fortunately, 5th years are not some recent experiment and we see how it works out for all of the better national FCS programs. It is certainly true one can find a downside in all sorts of athletic constructs. There's a downside to a 4-year QB starter who VERY rarely sits. Think of the lack of in-game experience for the backup and how that might slow their development and/or impact their performance when they become starters in future seasons. But I'll take it.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 11, 2023 7:31:06 GMT -5
For starters Status quo is not a plan So what does it look like? Becoming relevant has only been achieved by a ton of hard work by dedicated coaches and players over a five year period of continuous improvement. No tweaking of the schedule can generate that, it takes hard daily work. To illustrate how tough it is to maintain the status quo of national relevance, this season We're just as good as last year's 12-1 team but the ball has bounced the wrong way a few times instead of almost always the right way last year leaving us with two losses. You have to realize the status quo in football is excellence. So the status quo is highly desirable imo. The plan has to be to stay motivated and when necessary keep hiring quality head coaches like Chesney, Magarity, Riga and Paulsen. What type of plan are you looking for? I think the plan is to offer 27 varsity sports with great student participation benefits and in the five full quota of scholarship sports to get to the NCAA tournament more than our fair share through good coaching and hard work. FB and the two hockey teams have a better chance of making noise nationally than the two basketball teams because of the reduced pool of D-1 teams competing in FCS and ice hockey. Do you have some short cuts to success in your plan? First we are relevant in Football, and I believe we will be in other sports over the next two-three years My question is with all the changes taking place are we planning to react or take control of our future. Plan A, B, and C are needed under either scenario I agree with most of what you say and there are no shortcuts unless some wealthy individual leaves the school funds to accelerate improvements and changes However, in this current environment — have we developed our thinking in terms of a response to future changes in the world of athletics, do we have principles we want embraced by others, and if so, how do we gain support from other members/schools, what are three strategic imperatives we must have for athletics to support the mission and values of the institution, Are we going to wait and react or actively shape our future, which includes a stronger PL as an option Should we continue to offer 27 varsity sports If yes, how do we allocate future resources If no, how do we reallocate resources and use other investments to reshape the department Many other questions, options to be debated, and decisions to be made
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Post by alum on Oct 11, 2023 7:50:16 GMT -5
I don't begin to understand college finances like some here....just that anecdotally it seems like something has changed with Ivy financial aid to prospective football recruits that didn't exist in the 1980s. Knew a bunch of guys then who were offered by various Ivies but chose HC mainly due to the full athletic scholarship they were offered as opposed to the financial aid the Ivies were offering then. Maybe some chose HC due to its football success and playing Army, BC etc as well but I'm fairly certain the full athletic scholarship from HC was the deal signer for most then. You are certainly correct about the realities of the 1980s. HC got football players because their parents might have had to pay some or all of the cost of attendance at an Ivy. I would suggest that this is why we did well against the Ivies during that era. I don't believe that the Ivies give athletic scholarships and lie about it and would point two two facts in support of this assertion. First, they are being sued by former Brown basketball players for antitrust violations related to the Ivy policy insisting that only need based aid is allowed. Second, the word would get out. There is no way this would be hidden. PL coaches and others would be screaming it from the rooftops. Here is a summary of the antitrust questions. sports-entertainment.brooklaw.edu/sports/dropping-the-gloves-antitrust-liability-stares-down-the-ivy-leagues-athletic-scholarship-ban/#:~:text=This%20lawsuit%20resulted%20in%20the,decree%20to%20end%20the%20practice.&text=But%20in%201992%2C%20Congress%20passed,on%20a%20need%2Dblind%20basis.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 11, 2023 8:06:22 GMT -5
I agree with the apparent consensus that our 5th-year players have played a key role in our recent success. But there is, to a certain extent that is difficult to measure, also a downside. Younger players, particularly those in our most recent (and very successful) recruiting classes, have -- to a certain extent -- not had the opportunity to get in-game experience that woud be beneficial to their development. Yes, they do benefit from practicing with (and against) our older players and they get some semblance of what it takes to compete, but I wonder whether the lack of in-game experience now will slow their development and/or impact their performance when they become starters in future seasons. I've been wondering if this had anything to do with the struggles of the defensive line.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 11, 2023 8:15:42 GMT -5
I agree with the apparent consensus that our 5th-year players have played a key role in our recent success. But there is, to a certain extent that is difficult to measure, also a downside. Younger players, particularly those in our most recent (and very successful) recruiting classes, have -- to a certain extent -- not had the opportunity to get in-game experience that woud be beneficial to their development. Yes, they do benefit from practicing with (and against) our older players and they get some semblance of what it takes to compete, but I wonder whether the lack of in-game experience now will slow their development and/or impact their performance when they become starters in future seasons. I've been wondering if this had anything to do with the struggles of the defensive line. If there were no 5th years the struggles the particular DL players are having this year would have happened last year?
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Post by efg72 on Oct 11, 2023 8:46:38 GMT -5
If the Status Quo means Bob Chesney is our head coach, please give us another decade of the Status Quo. We will be highly successful as long as he is leading the team...and hopefully beyond I believe we should keep everything fresh, and football has done this. When we look at the changes in athletics, they impact more than football- so my point of having the discussion is to look at the bigger picture of college sports and where do we fit in the future. I probably misplaced it here in the football thread- but football is first up as it is where the changes are happening today.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 11, 2023 9:02:37 GMT -5
People are giving the IL too much credit. You’ve fallen for it and their plan has worked. Look to the recent study on admission rates by income level. If you are from a family in the top 1% your chances of admission are triple that of an average income student. A conclusion from the study provided by a Harvard economist who was not involved in the study was that “the Ivy League doesn’t have low income students because it doesn’t want low income students.” If you don’t think the IL bends the rules at all on athletics, I think you are missing a lot. And the IL is so thankful for you.
Without an adjustment, we will not have this level of success over the next several years. And Chesney is very smart. The moment he sees that the path forward becomes more challenging, he’s gone. The last thing he wants is a losing record.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 11, 2023 9:58:05 GMT -5
my avatar is all that i need to say about an opinion held for 40 years
JEB; perhaps holy, but a naive fool
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Post by bigfan on Oct 11, 2023 10:11:02 GMT -5
I would not schedule Merrimack any more. That team does nothing for us.
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