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Post by hc6774 on Oct 12, 2023 7:12:09 GMT -5
Fr. Brooks became HC’s President in July of 1970. With no football revenue from 1969, how could it look very good; combined w/the overall financial condition of the school? But you might also note, HC's financial conditions was better than our counterparts in Chestnut Hill at the time. Yes Peter Lynch hadn't happened yet at BC |
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Post by timholycross on Oct 12, 2023 8:07:56 GMT -5
Fourth and seven at the twelve yard line. Defense protecting against the pass. Snap to Sluka in the shotgun formation. It's a designed QB run. No, he’s stopping. He drops the ball and kicks it. It's up and it's good!🙂 Still remember Flutie doing that for the Patriots. Hard to believe that he convinced Belichick to let him do that. It helped that (a) they weren't playing for anything (b) the other team wasn't either and (c) neither team wanted the game to end in a tie and force an OT. |
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 12, 2023 9:44:50 GMT -5
Chat with a BC '84
"We were a nothing commuter school and then Flutie: he changed everything. We are now a national university with a reputation 10x better than before."
Yes, Fr Brooks and Bob Cousy and the rest of you who deny the power of athletics for school EXPOSURE (which if your product is good -ours is GREAT- leads to better students and increased academic reputation) are/were very foolish
The evidence is stark and undeniable.
BC (most of us didn't bother to apply to CHCC!)
Villanova (I was told "we dreamt about being close to HC")
Providence (not in the same zip code as HC: and now we compete with them for students)
ND and Georgetown (their taillights are getting farther away)
To deny that athletics propelled these institutions is impossible!
Yes, yes naive and foolish in the extreme
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Oct 12, 2023 11:19:44 GMT -5
I agree 100 percent! Athletics is the key to being great academically. Just look at Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, MIT, Cal Poly, U of Chicago, etc. They wouldn't be the top academic institutions they are without the national exposure their athletics programs have generated by having Division 1 athletics over the past 50 years. On second thought, never mind . . .
My point, of course, is that it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 12, 2023 11:51:30 GMT -5
As much as many in the past tried to figure out where we fit hoping we'd be considered Ivy-ish in the PL or if we dropped schollies would be on par with Williams, Amherst, etc. overlook the fact that those exclusive clubs will never allow a Jesuit school in. It just would never happen and never will. Williams and Princeton could drop athletics tomorrow and still get the same number of applicants next year and have a 5% admission rate. Holy Cross is different. We don't have the same academic reputation. Athletics is a big part of who we are and were. Just look at the attendance and energy at the BC game this year. You can't tell me that our reputation isn't directly tied to our athletic success.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Oct 12, 2023 13:57:21 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But in my opinion you should be careful throwing words like "naive" and "foolish" around. I'm pretty certain that I know more about intercollegiate athletics from the administrative, governance, and academic perspectives than anyone on here. I spent over half of my academic career involved with intercollegiate athletics. I may be wrong, but I am neither naive nor foolish.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 12, 2023 15:34:54 GMT -5
As my good friend Chairman John Dingell (RIP) used to remind his colleagues, we can agree to disagree, but there is never a reason to be disagreeable.
Unfortunately, those good days of civility on both sides of the aisle have sprinted by and are unlikely to return anytime soon.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 12, 2023 18:24:42 GMT -5
Chat with a BC '84 "We were a nothing commuter school and then Flutie: he changed everything. We are now a national university with a reputation 10x better than before." Yes, Fr Brooks and Bob Cousy and the rest of you who deny the power of athletics for school EXPOSURE (which if your product is good -ours is GREAT- leads to better students and increased academic reputation) are/were very foolish The evidence is stark and undeniable. BC (most of us didn't bother to apply to CHCC!) Villanova (I was told "we dreamt about being close to HC") Providence (not in the same zip code as HC: and now we compete with them for students) ND and Georgetown (their taillights are getting farther away) To deny that athletics propelled these institutions is impossible! Yes, yes naive and foolish in the extreme Don't you think that Cousy, Togo, Ron Perry,Sr. and Heinsohn moved Holy Cross past BC in the first place? It was probably Cousy, maybe another former player who said you could see backboards and hoops go up in driveways, parks and schoolyards during HC's great run on the Hardcourt. I suggest that zipcode has as much to do with BC's ascendancy as the zip on a pass. Chestnut Hill is hip, trendy urban but also leafy and safe. Worcester was once described by the NY Times as the industrial utility closet of New England. BC is right on the T to take you anywhere in a world class metro area. The bus doesn’t even stop at Holy Cross any more, not even the Consortium van, I believe. I lived through the Flutie years and loved the whole phenomenon so I certainly grant him great credit but BC is very marketable with academics, location, and the gravitas that comes with being a major university not a small college, besides P-5 sports. |
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Post by efg72 on Oct 12, 2023 18:36:24 GMT -5
We talk about Flutie as a transformational figure for BC, but I can make a strong case that the transformation for BC actually started with Cousy, our HC legend, leading BC forward in national recognition and acceptance
Irony of course
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Post by hc87 on Oct 12, 2023 21:48:35 GMT -5
Flutie helped but it wasn't as if BC was still the commuter school for Catholics in the Greater Boston area that it once was by 1981. It had become a fairly well established school by the early 80s that was basically on a par with HC then (in terms of acceptance rates etc). And with that, excuse me as I run to the toilet to puke after posting positively about BC.  |
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Post by Ignutz on Oct 13, 2023 7:05:44 GMT -5
I vividly remember a spirited dorm-room discussion in the mid-70s wherein I posited that there was no valid reason for BC to not be as relevant and prominent as ND. The basis for my argument was centered on the points raised above re: location.
Maybe the proximity to Harvard and MIT, and their worldwide reputation, relegated BC to second-class status. Maybe it was the Catholic thing in Brahmin/WASP-y Boston. In the end, trying to ignore the vast reputational difference between the two schools of similar size and background, I suggested that most kids would prefer Boston to South Bend.
Flutie certainly raised BC’s national stature, and they’ve done a good job capitalizing on that for the past forty years, but ND’s head start won’t ever be overcome.
As for me, I chose (and will continue to choose) our magnificent Alma Mater over all.
In hoc signo vinces. (Autocorrect wanted that to read “Vince’s”! Hmmm.)
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2023 7:22:07 GMT -5
Apparently someone on the Hill has had quite an impact on the AI community.  |
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 13, 2023 7:36:05 GMT -5
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 13, 2023 7:40:24 GMT -5
I know he's having an effect on me - I just love watching that kid compete!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 13, 2023 8:29:30 GMT -5
I love watching Matt Sluka lead our Crusaders to wins-he is a great football player. However I'd guess that he has very low awareness across the country among members of the general public. |
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Post by hcpride on Oct 13, 2023 8:40:53 GMT -5
Flutie helped but it wasn't as if BC was still the commuter school for Catholics in the Greater Boston area that it once was by 1981. It had become a fairly well established school by the early 80s that was basically on a par with HC then (in terms of acceptance rates etc)... Very true. And the city itself was beginning to improve at about that time. (Some have pointed out that Northeastern and Boston University really started improving in terms of reputation and selectivity a few years later and neither had Flutie) I suspect BC would have followed a very similar trajectory from the late 70's thru today even if Doug had attended his initial first choice (Harvard). |
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2023 8:58:38 GMT -5
Perhaps BU benefitted because students "thought" they were applying to BC. Heck the two are close after all.  |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 13, 2023 8:59:49 GMT -5
Regarding the Flutie Effect, BC says no such thing.
The BC webpage with the 2003 edition of Boston College magazine is taking too long to load. The quote is from an academic study of the Flutie Effect by a St. John's University professor.
For BC's class of 1985, applied before Flutie's Hail Mary, applications / enrollment by state
CA 86 / 2
FL 117 / 25
TX 27 / 4
MA 4684 / 838
RI 428 / 87
For BC's class of 2026,
CA 4609 / 151
FL 1467 / 65
TX 1221 / 68
MA 5843 / 483
RI 489 / 25
As the BC Director of Communications noted, BC made a very concerted effort to broaden its geographic reach to other areas of the country with growing populations. This was started before Flutie, and continues to this day. What he didn't say was that BC deliberately de-emphasized New England, an d to some extent NY and NJ as a source of applicants..
Holy Cross on the other hand, led by the esteemed Dir of Admissions, kept its attention on New England and NY and NJ. California may well have been French Polynesia, and beyond her comfort zone.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 13, 2023 9:38:56 GMT -5
Given the reputation they aspired to and have achieved, of course they don't want to admit to the positive effect their successful athletics programs have had. There were hundreds and hundreds of kids who watched Flutie connect with Phelan who subsequently put BC on their radar. No doubt.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 13, 2023 9:50:14 GMT -5
Given the reputation they aspired to and have achieved, of course they don't want to admit to the positive effect their successful athletics programs have had. There were hundreds and hundreds of kids who watched Flutie connect with Phelan who subsequently put BC on their radar. No doubt. Except the current student body from what we saw on 9/9 is not exactly married to the fortunes of BC football. |
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Post by Ignutz on Oct 13, 2023 9:58:36 GMT -5
Given the reputation they aspired to and have achieved, of course they don't want to admit to the positive effect their successful athletics programs have had. There were hundreds and hundreds of kids who watched Flutie connect with Phelan who subsequently put BC on their radar. No doubt. |
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 13, 2023 10:01:55 GMT -5
I'll be there for sure! And when they connect for 4 TDs and shock a Dakota, you watch the admission rate drop a couple percentage points. |
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 13, 2023 15:20:13 GMT -5
Flutie helped but it wasn't as if BC was still the commuter school for Catholics in the Greater Boston area that it once was by 1981. It had become a fairly well established school by the early 80s that was basically on a par with HC then (in terms of acceptance rates etc)... Very true. And the city itself was beginning to improve at about that time. (Some have pointed out that Northeastern and Boston University really started improving in terms of reputation and selectivity a few years later and neither had Flutie) I suspect BC would have followed a very similar trajectory from the late 70's thru today even if Doug had attended his initial first choice (Harvard). Bingo. BU and NU dropped football and rose in esteem. So there is no magic bullet and FCS football can't carry the whole international reputation of an institution on it's back. |
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Post by hcpride on Oct 13, 2023 17:07:45 GMT -5
Very true. And the city itself was beginning to improve at about that time. (Some have pointed out that Northeastern and Boston University really started improving in terms of reputation and selectivity a few years later and neither had Flutie) I suspect BC would have followed a very similar trajectory from the late 70's thru today even if Doug had attended his initial first choice (Harvard). Bingo. BU and NU dropped football and rose in esteem. So there is no magic bullet and FCS football can't carry the whole international reputation of an institution on it's back. It's worth a chuckle when somebody tells you BC zoomed past HC in terms of reputaion and popularity because of Flutie. Of course, we know it was BC to the Big East that did the trick (not location, size, academic offerings...). |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 13, 2023 17:40:49 GMT -5
Right, it was the “Flutie Effect” that advanced bc and, likewise, the rise of Northeastern University (I have an MBA from there) can be attributed 100% to the “Reggie Lewis Effect”. Now we need to find a BU athlete to lionize because that is surely what helped Boston University
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