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Post by hchoops on May 10, 2024 8:48:07 GMT -5
Another very good player who did not make the Hall of Fame is Ted Kluszewski who I saw play against the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1956(when Don Zimmerman was hit in the head by a pitch, knocked unconscious and carried out on a stretcher). Some stats BA- .298 OPS- .851 HRs- 279 RBIs- 1028 A very good fielder. 4 time All Star, with Hodges, Adcock as some competitors. More total walks than strikeouts. A runner up to Mays for MVP in one season I do not know his WAR
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 10, 2024 8:59:48 GMT -5
Nobody born before 1995 knows anything about WAR, you're not alone hchoops.
I had to cheat the first time 40 WAR Career and 6+ WAR season came up in Immaculate Grid just to get a benchmark for what those numbers meant. 40 WAR career-wise is basically Paul O'Neill and Al Leiter or better. 6+ WAR is more or less a Top 10 MVP type of season or Top 5 Cy Young.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 10, 2024 9:50:20 GMT -5
Klu was an excellent ballplayer and had some monster seasons in the mid 1950's. He didn't have a long enough career to get strong HOF support. . He was a wide receiver at Indiana University . There's a very nice statue of him as you enter the ballpark in Cincy.
ASs I recall. Klu had huge guns and I believe some of his baseball cards or promotional photos had him in a sleeveless shirt
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Post by hc1998 on May 10, 2024 9:53:06 GMT -5
Nobody born before 1995 knows anything about WAR, you're not alone hchoops. I had to cheat the first time 40 WAR Career and 6+ WAR season came up in Immaculate Grid just to get a benchmark for what those numbers meant. 40 WAR career-wise is basically Paul O'Neill and Al Leiter or better. 6+ WAR is more or less a Top 10 MVP type of season or Top 5 Cy Young. I couldn't calculate WAR or begin to tell you how they calculate it...but I use it often to compare players and understand the relative value of a particular WAR (although I do think in some instances it weights defense a bit too much, as thats usually the only distinction between two "similar" hitters with widely disparate WAR's)...and I did not graduate HC at the age of 3
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 10, 2024 10:00:08 GMT -5
Matt Stairs was one of my buddy's hail mary guesses this morning and it hit. Another one we learned and now will keep in the back pocket was Jeff Franceur while he was hanging on one team at a per-year clip.
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Post by hchoops on May 10, 2024 10:11:05 GMT -5
Klu was an excellent ballplayer and had some monster seasons in the mid 1950's. He didn't have a long enough career to get strong HOF support. . He was a wide receiver at Indiana University . There's a very nice statue of him as you enter the ballpark in Cincy. ASs I recall. Klu had huge guns and I believe some of his baseball cards or promotional photos had him in a sleeveless shirt sabr.org/bioproj/person/ted-kluszewski/
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 10, 2024 10:12:12 GMT -5
Matt Stairs was one of my buddy's hail mary guesses this morning and it hit. Another one we learned and now will keep in the back pocket was Jeff Franceur while he was hanging on one team at a per-year clip. Today was a sneaky hard one. Not too tough to get 9/9 as long as you could remember some specific Royals, but tough to get low. A lot of the pitchers who fit those categories could've checked off multiple boxes. I ended up with a 130 or so total score. Hardest box was KC/WAS and Mark Grudzielanek popped into my head. The other name I was thinking was Wil Cordero -- not sure if he played for KC though.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 10, 2024 12:07:42 GMT -5
I whiffed on 2 today...and on the same player. How in the world did Kirk Gibson not make an All Star team for either Detroit or LA? Didn't he win a league MVP? I believe Gibson is widely heralded as one of the best players to never make an all star team...he also won the MVP, in part, because McReynolds and Strawberry split some east coast votes coming in 3rd and 2nd respectively and picking up 11 first place votes between the two of them i wonder-- is the MVP voting conducted before or after the World Series? Gibson got injured and didn't play in the Series except for that one dramatic pinch hit--hitting a home run and pumping his arms as he limped around the bases, one of the most iconic at bats in history.. If the voting took place after the Series I could see voters being affected by that visual.
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 10, 2024 12:09:47 GMT -5
172 today. Was very chalky. Michael A. Taylor was my bottom left.
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Post by hc1998 on May 10, 2024 14:20:08 GMT -5
I believe Gibson is widely heralded as one of the best players to never make an all star team...he also won the MVP, in part, because McReynolds and Strawberry split some east coast votes coming in 3rd and 2nd respectively and picking up 11 first place votes between the two of them i wonder-- is the MVP voting conducted before or after the World Series? Gibson got injured and didn't play in the Series except for that one dramatic pinch hit--hitting a home run and pumping his arms as he limped around the bases, one of the most iconic at bats in history.. If the voting took place after the Series I could see voters being affected by that visual. I believe the voting has always been conducted prior to the postseason, but announced after...at least going back into the 80's. I'm not saying Gibson didn't deserve it...in fact, applying the WAR metric which was discussed on here earlier, he was in fact more valuable than Strawberry. But looking at the stats in the prism of how stats were viewed in 1988 its hard to pick Gibson over Strawberry straight up. I'm sure the third place finisher being a teammate of Straws didn't help (nor did the perception that Gibson turned around the Dodgers while Strawberry was not a media favorite...he was, however, hands down the best player on a 100 win team)
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Post by Sons of Vaval on May 10, 2024 14:26:43 GMT -5
172 today. Was very chalky. Michael A. Taylor was my bottom left. I was stuck on this was longer than any of the other eight boxes. Finally, Jose Guillen came to me.
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Post by timholycross on May 11, 2024 6:42:37 GMT -5
The IG's for basketball and hockey are even more difficult, IMHO.
Part of it is that when I was in high school and following the major sports religiously; baseball had a much more comparable number of teams (20) to the present day (30).
Compare that to the NHL and NBA; the NHL had 6 and the NBA had 10-12.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 11, 2024 7:57:15 GMT -5
I've never had interest in playing the other grids. I also followed all 4 religiously growing up. There's just something different about baseball.
I tried the football grid a couple times and that was it.
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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 9:41:33 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make was not home vs road HRs, or what Alou, Cepeda, or Jim Ray Hart did at The Stick from the right handed batting box.......the point I was trying to make was what would his HR number have been if he played in a different home park, for example, Shibe Park or Atlanta Fulton County I think the essence of this is as follows-and some no doubt will disagree, but I base my conclusion on facts only: Willie Mays was not hurt in any way because he played in Candlestick Park, at least an average park for right-handed hitters. It;'s an entirely different argument , perhaps the one you are making, that if Willie played in a tremendous hitters park he, like every other player in the league, would have put up even more impressive numbers. For example. Willie hit 28 home runs in just 220 at bats at Ebbets Field. If he had been a Dodger, and if the Dodgers had not been moved to LA by the criminal Walter O'Malley (thanks, hchoops, for the correction) , Willie might have hit 600 homers there and 300 on the road for 900 total. Wrigley Field, home of the Cubs, tells the same story for every player. Willie hit 54 homers in 691 at bats there and he batted .342 there. Perhaps some is due to facing weak Cubs pitchers, but if you check Wrigley vs non-Wrigley stats for Cubs greats like Ernie Banks, Ryne Sandberg, or Ron Santo you'll see an astounding difference in batting numbers between home and away. Excellent points, and Walter O'Malley was a criminal
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Post by 78purple on Jun 18, 2024 20:23:10 GMT -5
I was lucky to see Willie a few times. The last time was game 3 73 World Series at Shea. Catfish vs. Seaver. The Say-Hey Kid passed away this evening....What a life.....incredible irony that he passed less than 48 hours before the MLB game to be played in his old Negro League stadium in Birmingham, and just 2 days after he made an announcement stating he regretted not being able to attend the game
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Post by mm67 on Jun 19, 2024 15:31:09 GMT -5
Discussions in the media about Mays, the greatest player of all time. There are other possibilities who are mentioned such as the Babe. Mantle is never in the conversation, never mentioned. Mantle is not an issue. Case closed. The great Willie Mays is gone. He belongs to the ages.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 19, 2024 15:48:25 GMT -5
I was a huge Mickey Mantle fan but never put him in the GOAT category.
It was always Babe Ruth growing up and no one else close.
Mays and Hank Aaron up there as demigods. Willie might have been one of, if not the best, all-around players. Ted Williams and maybe Joe D close enough to be in the discussion.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 19, 2024 18:25:47 GMT -5
I was a huge Mickey Mantle fan but never put him in the GOAT category. It was always Babe Ruth growing up and no one else close. Mays and Hank Aaron up there as demigods. Willie might have been one of, if not the best, all-around players. Ted Williams and maybe Joe D close enough to be in the discussion. Keep in mind Joe spent three years of his prime in the Service during WW2 and Ted lost almost five years of his prime to both WW2 and the Korean War. Ted had an option to play on a Service baseball team to stay sharp but he opted for flight training to become a pilot which did not allow time for baseball. Imagine what those two could have done in those years because they would have been peak years. Stan the man Musial only lost one year as his draft board had enough young men available and didn't call him until after the 1944 season and he was honorably discharged in March of 1946. WAR and all that is great but there was nothing like the thrill as a kid of getting a baseball card of a Musial, Clemente, Berra etc, and seeing stats for about twenty seasons on the back and studying each year while chewing the bubble gum.
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Post by mm67 on Jun 19, 2024 19:15:52 GMT -5
"One of if not the best all around"? Who was a better all around player? Keep in mind Mays' oft neglected brilliant base running & near genius understanding of the game. Aaron was a great, great hitter & fine outfielder but not the centerfielder nor base runner as was Mays. Ruth? Greatest hitter(?) but played only against some but not all of the best players & other aspects of his game were not on the level of Mays. Same with Williams who was the best hitter I ever saw. Mays' abilities spurred the use of the term 5 tool player as was used by Durocher or was it Branch Rickey. I honestly can't think of a player who did so many things on the level of Mays. And, he was electrifying to watch on the field.
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Post by 78purple on Jun 19, 2024 22:09:48 GMT -5
"One of if not the best all around"? Who was a better all around player? Keep in mind Mays' oft neglected brilliant base running & near genius understanding of the game. Aaron was a great, great hitter & fine outfielder but not the centerfielder nor base runner as was Mays. Ruth? Greatest hitter(?) but played only against some but not all of the best players & other aspects of his game were not on the level of Mays. Same with Williams who was the best hitter I ever saw. Mays' abilities spurred the use of the term 5 tool player as was used by Durocher or was it Branch Rickey. I honestly can't think of a player who did so many things on the level of Mays. And, he was electrifying to watch on the field. Best combination ever of power, speed and defense......People forget that he lead the NL in 3 consecutive years in stolen bases....double digit golden gloves.......one can only speculate on what his numbers would have been if he didn't lose 2 years of military service in his prime, and, as discussed in previous posts, the fact he played in Candlestick Park......the best to ever do it.......tomorrow night in Birmingham should be special
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Post by alum on Jun 20, 2024 5:22:59 GMT -5
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Post by mm67 on Jun 20, 2024 6:01:01 GMT -5
Alum, I have not seen those in the sports media or former players & coaches comparing these particular players in any discussion of the greatest all around player. I believe "Statehead Versus" is a compiler of names & numbers with the reader entering names, no? Were these the names you chose for comparison? I can't imagine a discussion not including Aaron, Griffey & possibly others. Unfortunately, Safari, despite my efforts will not allow links to other sites from Crossports. Can't access your link. Certainly the Babe transcended the game & would be part of any discussion as is Mays. Are you a Yankees fan? I was a Giants/Mets fan but decided to join with the "Evil Empire" in the late'90's. I liked that Yankees team. Peace. mm
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Post by alum on Jun 20, 2024 6:23:06 GMT -5
Alum, I have not seen any discussion by those in the sports media or former players & coaches comparing these particular players. I believe "Statehead Versus" is a compiler of names & numbers with the reader entering names, no? Were these the names you chose for comparison? Unfortunately, my Safari, despite my efforts will not allow links to other sites. Can't access your link. Certainly the Babe transcended the game & would be part of any discussion as is Mays. Peace. I chose the names based on players what have been mentioned here and elsewhere as well as my personal opinions on the greatest players. Baseball Reference is a wonderful site for use in thinking about these issues. BTW, I think that all of the greats from what I consider the golden age of baseball are now gone. (Others may disagree but I date that from the early 1920s to the late 1950s)
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Post by mm67 on Jun 20, 2024 6:35:37 GMT -5
Alum, I have not seen any discussion by those in the sports media or former players & coaches comparing these particular players. I believe "Statehead Versus" is a compiler of names & numbers with the reader entering names, no? Were these the names you chose for comparison? Unfortunately, my Safari, despite my efforts will not allow links to other sites. Can't access your link. Certainly the Babe transcended the game & would be part of any discussion as is Mays. Peace. I chose the names based on players what have been mentioned here and elsewhere as well as my personal opinions on the greatest players. Baseball Reference is a wonderful site for use in thinking about these issues. BTW, I think that all of the greats from what I consider the golden age of baseball are now gone. (Others may disagree but I date that from the early 1920s to the late 1950s) Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
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Post by Tom on Jun 20, 2024 9:03:34 GMT -5
I have said that Williams is the greatest hitter but Mays is the greatest baseball player because of the whole 5 tool thing The wild thing about Ruth is that he was also a great pitcher. He held a record for sometime (and maybe still does) of consecutive scoreless or hitless innings pitched in the World Series. I think that in 1950 there was a poll of the best baseball player ever and the winner was Cobb. They did it again in 2000 and the winner was Ruth - even though neither played an inning during the years between polls
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