|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 30, 2018 10:26:20 GMT -5
But on the subject of general mediocrity, it would also be wrong to say the Yankees were a mediocre defensive team - they were a truly terrible defensive team, maybe the worst in all of baseball by advanced metrics like total zone fielding runs. If they don't address this deficiency, they won't get to the Series next year either.
Which, as a life-long Yankee hater, suits me just fine.
Well, to be fair, the Yankees were rated 11th (by stats). That means they were better defensively than 19 other MLB teams (and better than the MLB "average" so I will say they were only slightly above average, but they were by no means "truly terrible." Of course, by the standards of a Sox fan, the Yankees must be truly terrible simply because they exist. This may make next year's Yankee win even sweeter (if such a thing could happen).
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Oct 30, 2018 10:46:50 GMT -5
But on the subject of general mediocrity, it would also be wrong to say the Yankees were a mediocre defensive team - they were a truly terrible defensive team, maybe the worst in all of baseball by advanced metrics like total zone fielding runs. If they don't address this deficiency, they won't get to the Series next year either.
Which, as a life-long Yankee hater, suits me just fine.
Well, to be fair, the Yankees were rated 11th (by stats). That means they were better defensively than 19 other MLB teams (and better than the MLB "average" so I will say they were only slightly above average, but they were by no means "truly terrible." Well, to be fair, you're wrong. The Yankees were 17th in Fielding Average, which (like batting average) is not the only, nor arguably the most important, measure of prowess. How many balls you get to is at least as important as how many you field cleanly. Defensive range is measured by other stats. Metric, Yankee performance, MLB rank
Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average - Yankees, -49 (28th) Defensive Efficiency - Yankees, .684 (23rd)
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 30, 2018 10:48:21 GMT -5
How many "mediocre" teams set records for HRs? (Not that it is ever needed but that is a good quote for "bulletin board" material for the Yanks...or at least for Yankee fans) Here are the other teams in the Top 10 for most home runs in a season. Not one even made it to the World Series, only four made it to the post-season at all, and three finished under .500.
OPS - not HRs - is what matters offensively.
Team, HRs - Wins, Post-Season?
97 SEA, 264 - 90 W, Lost in ALCS 05 TEX, 260 - 79W, No. 10 TOR, 257 - 85W, No 96 BAL, 257 - 88W, Lost in ALCS 16 BAL, 253 - 89W, Lost in ALCS 00 HOU, 249 - 72W, No 01 TEX, 246 - 73W, No 12 NYY, 245 - 95W, Lost in ALCS 96 SEA, 245 - 85W, No
So, 50% of the top homer hitting teams made the post season--pretty impressive. Looks like a strong correlation--but likely not as strong as some other metrics, e.g. ERA, fielding percentage, OPS. Pitching, defense, and the three-run homer: the keys to inning baseball
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Oct 30, 2018 11:15:46 GMT -5
So, 50% of the top homer hitting teams made the post season--pretty impressive. Looks like a strong correlation For some reason, the phrase "heads or tails" pops to mind. None of them made it to the WS - now you have my attention
Here's another way to look at it. The ten teams listed had an average W-L% of 52.4% (85-77) - which, I think most of us would agree, is perilously close to "meh."
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 30, 2018 11:20:14 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, the Yankees were rated 11th (by stats). That means they were better defensively than 19 other MLB teams (and better than the MLB "average" so I will say they were only slightly above average, but they were by no means "truly terrible." Well, to be fair, you're wrong. The Yankees were 17th in Fielding Average, which (like batting average) is not the only, nor arguably the most important, measure of prowess. How many balls you get to is at least as important as how many you field cleanly. Defensive range is measured by other stats. Metric, Yankee performance, MLB rank
Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Average - Yankees, -49 (28th) Defensive Efficiency - Yankees, (23rd)
OK, I may be wrong, but when one can choose which of the sets of stats one uses (trying to rate defense without losing at pitching is a bit foolish.) I'll go with the wise man who said each sets of stats is "not the only, nor arguably the most important, measure of prowess."
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Oct 30, 2018 11:33:28 GMT -5
The litmus test for the way one looks at defensive statistics involves Derek Jeter. He won five Gold Gloves - wow. When his play is measured by advanced metrics like Fielding Runs Above Average and Total Zone, he "cost his team more in the field than any other player in history" - double wow. grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Oct 30, 2018 11:38:57 GMT -5
Lies, damn lies, statistics.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Oct 30, 2018 13:04:57 GMT -5
Lies, damn lies, statistics. Only if they do not prove your pre-conceived opinions
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Oct 30, 2018 15:15:10 GMT -5
How many more titles does Boston need to catch up to the Yankees? Jes askin. 😉 P.S. Don’t give me the ancient history comeback. If it happened in my lifetime (born 1948), it ain’t “ancient history.” 😂 Actually, ancient history tells us everything we need to know. The Yankees won their first World Series in 1923 - the roster included nine players obtained from Red Sox owner/quisling, Harry Frazee. In addition to Ruth . . . C Wally Schang, 3B Joe Dugan, SS Everett Scott, and five pitchers - Waite Hoyt (HOF), Herb Pennock (HOF), Joe Bush, Carl Mays, and Sad Sam Jones - who combined for 81 of the team's 98 wins during the regular season, and hurled three of the four WS victories. The rest is, well, history.
You're welcome.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 30, 2018 15:21:01 GMT -5
How many more titles does Boston need to catch up to the Yankees? Jes askin. 😉 P.S. Don’t give me the ancient history comeback. If it happened in my lifetime (born 1948), it ain’t “ancient history.” 😂 Actually, ancient history tells us everything we need to know. The Yankees won their first World Series in 1923 - the roster included nine players obtained from Red Sox owner/quisling, Harry Frazee. In addition to Ruth . . . C Wally Schang, 3B Joe Dugan, SS Everett Scott, and five pitchers - Waite Hoyt (HOF), Herb Pennock (HOF), Joe Bush, Carl Mays, and Sad Sam Jones - who won 81 games during the regular season, and hurled three of the four WS victories.
You're welcome.
We must note that Joe Dugan was a Holy Cross Crusader--played in 5 World Series for the Yankees
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Oct 30, 2018 17:44:29 GMT -5
The Yanks were second in MLB in runs scored by 25 (to the Sox) which is a whopping 1/7 of a run per game. Pretty much a wash.
Defensively, catching, when it was Sanchez, was an absolute disaster. But they only made 94 errors which is the median for MLB.
I thought when the Sox were running on all cylinders they had a better pitching staff. However, there was no guarantee of that going into the postseason. The Yankees seemed set up better to go further with that deep bullpen*. Glad they didn't.
*As a Sox fan, I'll take Robertson off your hands in a heartbeat
|
|
|
Post by possum on Oct 30, 2018 18:18:08 GMT -5
Yankees had probably league worst defense at catcher and third base (Red Sox with Devers right there with them) and first base was below average, middle infielders good and outfield excellent although not close to Red Sox who have the best defensive outfield I've seen. In addition to be very talented I think the intangibles set the Red Sox apart from the rest of the field this year as their resilience and will to win was off the charts. Cora was fantastic in setting the tone from day one and I hope the Red Sox do the right thing and give him a nice raise. By far the most enjoyable season I've had following the Sox.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 30, 2018 19:05:38 GMT -5
How many more titles does Boston need to catch up to the Yankees? Jes askin. 😉 P.S. Don’t give me the ancient history comeback. If it happened in my lifetime (born 1948), it ain’t “ancient history.” 😂 A few of those titles were fraudulently obtained by the Yankees as they used the Kansas City A’s as a s second farm system and utilized one sided trades with that organization to bolster their roster. So, I discount their titles from the mid 50’s to the early 60’s.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 30, 2018 19:09:41 GMT -5
You’ve got to be kidding. The Yankees broke no MLB ruled in making those trades. Each one was an arm’s length transaction
|
|
|
Post by WorcesterGray on Oct 30, 2018 19:58:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Oct 30, 2018 22:44:46 GMT -5
I hate the Yankees as much and Longer than most here and agree about the collusion with KC, but that does not make their World series wins illegitimate. There is little proof that they would have lost without the KC players.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Oct 31, 2018 7:44:53 GMT -5
When I was a Yankee fan, many years ago, the KC Athletics were always referred to as the Yankee “farm team.” I always assumed they were what is AAA team. They did not play in the majors.
There was no secret and well publicized and presumably any other MLB team could have done the same thing.
As I’ve posted before, the Yanks used to have 2 AAA teams simultaneously, the Syracuse Chiefs and the Columbus Clippers.
So, perhaps an “embarrassment of riches” but nothing illegal or unethical that I am aware of.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Oct 31, 2018 7:50:17 GMT -5
When I was a Yankee fan, many years ago, the KC Athletics were always referred to as the Yankee “farm team.” I always assumed they were what is AAA team. They did not play in the majors. There was no secret and well publicized and presumably any other MLB team could have done the same thing. Any other team with the financial power of the Yan..., of which there was no one else at the time they were doing this.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Oct 31, 2018 8:54:00 GMT -5
I understand that. If I live in a middle class neighborhood except for one lucky or smart guy who is a multimillionaire and buys himself a Tesla, Lexus, Mercedes and BMW while the rest of us have Hondas and Camrys in our driveways, did Mr. Richie Rich "cheat" or did anything illegal, immoral or unethical? We may resent him and some people may be inclined to "key" some of his nice cars but that's life. Some organizations and people are born into a life of privilege. Some have to earn it. Most never achieve it. Some have it and then squander the advantage.
For the Yankees, being in NYC, the largest city in the U.S. and turned into being the only game in town for many years certainly had/have a lot of advantages.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 31, 2018 9:29:42 GMT -5
With the Giants, Dodgers and then Mets "in town" when were the "only game in town" years? I follow that they never spent as the Yankees did, but (especially under George) they also traded away some talent.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Oct 31, 2018 9:58:28 GMT -5
C'mon, Rob. Don't make me look it up but you know Dodgers fled and, IIPC, Giants the following year. Then Mets were not created for at least 3-5 years after Giants left. And while some "took" to the Mets right away, a lot, like me, had become Yank fans before transferring loyalty to the Mets (i.e. after Mantle, et. al. retired). I've already spent too much time on baseball here as I am no longer a fan or follower.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 31, 2018 12:26:15 GMT -5
OK, so you are speaking about the 3-5 years between when there were three team in town and then two teams. That means for most of their championships the Yankees were not the "only team in town." Thanks for the clarification.
|
|
|
Post by alum on Oct 31, 2018 13:44:53 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 31, 2018 14:41:03 GMT -5
You’ve got to be kidding. The Yankees broke no MLB ruled in making those trades. Each one was an arm’s length transaction When Connie Mack sold the A’s to Arthur Johnson he owned Yankee Stadium at the time. He never would have been able to buy the team without the support of the Yankees. The Yankees also owned the territorial rights to Kansas City, they waived them so Johnson could move the team from Philadelphia. Johnson then sold Yankee Stadium back to the Yankees. Needless to say during his ownership tenure he was beholden to the Yankees. Year after year lopsided trades were made to benefit the Yankees. The arrangement came to a stop when Charlie Finlay bought the team in 1960. Although I am a Red Sox fan I have great respect for the Yankees organization, with the exception of the years between 1955 and 1960.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 31, 2018 15:02:42 GMT -5
The foundation for those great Yankees teams was pretty much all home grown: Berra, Mantle, Skowron, Richardson, Kubek, Howard, McDougald, Bauer, Carey, Ford, Sturdivant, all came up with the Yankees. The Yankees did make a lot of trades with Kansas City :
"From 1955 to 1959, the Athletics and Yankees made 16 transactions that involved 61 players. Ryne Duren recalled that when Cleveland traded Roger Maris to Kansas City in March, 1958, the New York clubhouse was jubilant. “Well, we just got Maris,” shouted Yogi Berra, Gil McDougald and Hank Bauer. Indeed the Yankees did, as they acquired Maris in December, 1959. Perhaps Bauer was not so gleeful as he was headed to Kansas City as part of the seven-player deal."
For me, Clete Boyer, Roger Maris, and Hector Lopez are top-of-mind when I think of players the Yankees got from KC. They also got a lot of minor players. Still it wasn't like the Yankees gave nothing up as players such as Bob Cerv, Norm Siebern, and Jerry Lumpe left the Yankees and became stars with Kansas City
|
|