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Post by WorcesterGray on Apr 17, 2020 8:50:23 GMT -5
I was supportive of the coach until Grace Rett '22 was killed in the rowing van accident which seemed to coincide with BN feuding with Lowder. Wrong. Lowder was benched in mid-December, a month before the tragedy in Florida, and I suspect the issues that led to the disciplinary action started well before that.
You have consistently characterized the Lowder situation as a "feud" that Nelson was primarily responsible for and should have worked out. Another possibility (probability, imho) is that Lowder was very unhappy here very early on, made his disaffection known, and perhaps even told Nelson in November that he intended to transfer.
Neither of us know what happened, but pretty much everybody else on the board has long since moved on from this particular kid. Maybe you should consider doing the same.
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Post by bigfan on Apr 17, 2020 9:06:32 GMT -5
People give the coach some time. It will take him 3 years to fix the situation that we have, let's see how his first full recruiting class does. I believe this coach will get the job done if the school and fans give him some time.
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Post by hceconhist on Apr 17, 2020 10:05:51 GMT -5
This was why I asked the question of whether he could get his degree now.....that way he could be eligible immediately, plus get a second year. There is almost no chance he qualifies to receive a HC degree right now. The school requires students to take a minimum of 32 courses, and the usual academic plan is to take 8 courses/academic year. Moreover, the minimum course requirements for majors usually range from 10-14, so highly unlikely he completed that number in three academic years.
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Post by dadominate on Apr 17, 2020 10:20:52 GMT -5
BBC Thanks for the good laughto close out an otherwise complicated day you mean you don't agree that one person is always 100% to blame for everything and another person is always 100% the savior of everything?!?? it seems your belief that there are shades of gray and uncertainties may be the missing key to "understanding college basketball" like bbc. maybe another 50 years around the game and you'll be as wise, efg
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Post by efg72 on Apr 17, 2020 11:44:06 GMT -5
BBC Thanks for the good laughto close out an otherwise complicated day you mean you don't agree that one person is always 100% to blame for everything and another person is always 100% the savior of everything?!?? it seems your belief that there are shades of gray and uncertainties may be the missing key to "understanding college basketball" like bbc. maybe another 50 years around the game and you'll be as wise, efg Thanks dado, knowing I have a great mentor in BBC, makes my day- so much to learn and so little time.
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Post by joe on Apr 18, 2020 8:30:17 GMT -5
I have been unimpressed with what I have seen at games and with the mass exodus of players but pleased with recruiting. I am being cautiously optimistic but I am certainly not waiting 3 years to render judgement. Things right now are as bad as they can be and need to improve to at least a level of mediocrity next year. Period. HC cannot tolerate being almost the worst team in D1 for another season. It should not take 3 years to get out of this hole, no matter who put us there.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Apr 18, 2020 10:08:26 GMT -5
Holding my breath here. It's still very early in the off season; hoping for quiet except for news of an incoming impact transfer, but at this point anything could happen.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Apr 18, 2020 10:21:15 GMT -5
I have been unimpressed with what I have seen at games and with the mass exodus of players but pleased with recruiting. I am being cautiously optimistic but I am certainly not waiting 3 years to render judgement. Things right now are as bad as they can be and need to improve to at least a level of mediocrity next year. Period. HC cannot tolerate being almost the worst team in D1 for another season. It should not take 3 years to get out of this hole, no matter who put us there. If you had to choose between A & B below, what would you chose? A) Placate to below average players to keep them on the roster and minimize turnover, play a vanilla defense and allow the players to just hang around the 3 point line and chuck 3’s, be a little better in Year 2, still not close to good enough to compete at a high level, lower the ceiling for the program over the next 4-5 years because the team is not capable of playing a different style. B) Weed out the players who don’t want to be here and/or aren’t willing to put in the work necessary to be part of a successful program, bring in a bevy of new talent that’s aligned with how you want the team to play, perhaps be behind (A) in Year 2 by a few games, be in a much better place in Year 3, have a much higher ceiling going forward.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 18, 2020 10:30:07 GMT -5
I have been unimpressed with what I have seen at games and with the mass exodus of players but pleased with recruiting. I am being cautiously optimistic but I am certainly not waiting 3 years to render judgement. Things right now are as bad as they can be and need to improve to at least a level of mediocrity next year. Period. HC cannot tolerate being almost the worst team in D1 for another season. It should not take 3 years to get out of this hole, no matter who put us there. Half the season they were barely playing 7 people (less if you exclude Verbeek, who Nelson didn't want to play much; and Butler got banged up to boot). From that 7, eliminate LeSann, Verbeek and Niego; so you're down to 4. Perhaps add Reilly if he's improved his game/more physically ready. Hope of the newcomers Nelson can play 4 of them right away. 8 is a good rotation number in college basketball. Otherwise, more of what we saw this year. Most important of the incoming group is the point guard; I'd say. Wade, Butler and LeSann were all playing there and none were recruited for that.
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Post by joe on Apr 18, 2020 10:47:55 GMT -5
I have been unimpressed with what I have seen at games and with the mass exodus of players but pleased with recruiting. I am being cautiously optimistic but I am certainly not waiting 3 years to render judgement. Things right now are as bad as they can be and need to improve to at least a level of mediocrity next year. Period. HC cannot tolerate being almost the worst team in D1 for another season. It should not take 3 years to get out of this hole, no matter who put us there. If you had to choose between A & B below, what would you chose? A) Placate to below average players to keep them on the roster and minimize turnover, play a vanilla defense and allow the players to just hang around the 3 point line and chuck 3’s, be a little better in Year 2, still not close to good enough to compete at a high level, lower the ceiling for the program over the next 4-5 years because the team is not capable of playing a different style. B) Weed out the players who don’t want to be here and/or aren’t willing to put in the work necessary to be part of a successful program, bring in a bevy of new talent that’s aligned with how you want the team to play, perhaps be behind (A) in Year 2 by a few games, be in a much better place in Year 3, have a much higher ceiling going forward. Without knowing for certain why all the players left, I’m not convinced the situation came down to these two options, so hard to say. Maybe the players got run out of town. Maybe they all felt they could be in a more successful environment. Or maybe they just hated their new coach. Who knows? All I can can tell you is my optimism is mild and my skepticism moderate for a program turnaround. Just a gut feeling.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 18, 2020 10:50:30 GMT -5
I was supportive of the coach until Grace Rett '22 was killed in the rowing van accident which seemed to coincide with BN feuding with Lowder. Wrong. Lowder was benched in mid-December, a month before the tragedy in Florida, and I suspect the issues that led to the disciplinary action started well before that.
You have consistently characterized the Lowder situation as a "feud" that Nelson was primarily responsible for and should have worked out. Another possibility (probability, imho) is that Lowder was very unhappy here very early on, made his disaffection known, and perhaps even told Nelson in November that he intended to transfer.
Neither of us know what happened, but pretty much everybody else on the board has long since moved on from this particular kid. Maybe you should consider doing the same.
Will do so, thanks.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 18, 2020 10:59:20 GMT -5
"Maybe the players were getting run out." Heard this mentioned a few times on Crossports, but have not seen any evidence that this was happening.
Maybe they "all" felt they could be in a more successful environment. Unlikely, since not all are looking at D1 programs Grandison went to a program where many of the players there bailed out just after he signed on. Possibly, in his case, moving from one upheaval to another? Being more successful for one or more may have required a move down a level or two.
Or maybe they just hated the new coach. General hatred? That, to say the least, is unlikely and a bit strange.
Omitted were: Players found they were not strong enough to compete in the new system at the level the coach desired.
One or more may have been contacted by another team's coach about transferring to fill a need on that team. (I know this is not supposed to be done. However, it happens.)
Fear they could not match the talent of incoming recruits.
Who knows? One thing I do believe is that ALL of them did not leave the team for the same reason.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 18, 2020 11:12:33 GMT -5
Being unhappy on a 3-29 team is understandable. Does player retention increase as you go up the standings in the PL? I bet it does.
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Post by trimster on Apr 18, 2020 11:12:41 GMT -5
Holding my breath here. It's still very early in the off season; hoping for quiet except for news of an incoming impact transfer, but at this point anything could happen. And probably will based on the last ten months.
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Post by joe on Apr 18, 2020 11:19:33 GMT -5
“Omitted were . . . Players found they were not strong enough to compete in the new system at the level the coach desired . . . One or more may have been contacted by another team's coach about transferring to fill a need on that team . . . Fear they could not match the talent of incoming recruits.“
If any of these are true, then the wrong model of student-athlete was recruited.
Also, not sure if coaches can poach players.
Lastly, having to keep ones spot on the rotation by exceeding the talent of newer players is part of athletics from youth to the pros.
I agree it was likely not precisely one reason and each player who left may have had more than one reason. Having lived through something similar, if I were a betting man, there is mostly likely one overarching or dominant reason that none of us may ever know, not should we. Regardless, it is a very bad look for a program and when this happens you better right the ship pretty damn quick to justify it.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 18, 2020 11:46:22 GMT -5
The number of players leaving is extraordinary. Observers might "forgive" a one-year anomaly, but if this happens again we'll know that there is something really wrong with the program.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 18, 2020 15:17:39 GMT -5
The number of players leaving is extraordinary. Observers might "forgive" a one-year anomaly, but if this happens again we'll know that there is something really wrong with the program. Yes, playing a bunch of freshmen in 2020-21 (or 21-22 depending on what happens w/the pandemic) does not reflect that terribly on Nelson. But, repeating that two years later does usually.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 18, 2020 19:56:40 GMT -5
“Omitted were . . . Players found they were not strong enough to compete in the new system at the level the coach desired . . . One or more may have been contacted by another team's coach about transferring to fill a need on that team . . . Fear they could not match the talent of incoming recruits.“ If any of these are true, then the wrong model of student-athlete was recruited. Also, not sure if coaches can poach players. Lastly, having to keep ones spot on the rotation by exceeding the talent of newer players is part of athletics from youth to the pros. I agree it was likely not precisely one reason and each player who left may have had more than one reason. Having lived through something similar, if I were a betting man, there is mostly likely one overarching or dominant reason that none of us may ever know, not should we. Regardless, it is a very bad look for a program and when this happens you better right the ship pretty damn quick to justify it. Carmody was the definition of a "system recruiter".Not if there's any kind of paper trail, they can't. Bill Self notoriously attempted to recruit CJ McCollum during the handshake line at the conclusion of the Kansas-Lehigh game in the first round of the 2010 NCAA Tournament.
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Post by HC92 on Apr 28, 2020 19:22:30 GMT -5
From a Chicago Sun Times article on local transfers:
“Niego is now sorting through a number of different mid-major options as a transfer.”
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Post by purplehaze on Apr 28, 2020 20:56:46 GMT -5
I wonder how Connor is marketing himself for two more years playing - the way I see it he’s playing only 2021-22 unless the ncaa grants the waiver for transfers to play immediately
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