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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 9:48:55 GMT -5
Fairly or not, "You are known by the company you keep." HC is in great company far superior from an academic viewpoint than the sum of the schools (outliers notwithstanding) in the leagues mentioned. These are colleges not professional franchises.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 30, 2022 10:12:52 GMT -5
At this point the AI is antiquated. The AI may have served a legit purpose 20 or 30 years ago in relation to academic integrity but most schools have reformed their athletic departments to ensure that academics take priority over "win at all costs"....especially at the FCS/mid-major level. The only purpose that the AI serves now is cost containment for schools that cannot afford to compete with their peers. Question for you guys......would you want Holy Cross to join America East instead of the Patriot IF your football program could stay in the Patriot as an associate member? Agree Obviously there are scores of schools with superior academic reputations (in some cases far superior academic reputations) than HC and do NOT have an AI. Places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc. As a matter of fact we had a stronger academic reputation prior to aping the Ivies by creating/joining an AI league. One does not gain or lose an academic reputation based on which schools you play in your sports league. Obviously. (Again see, places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc.). Nor by having an AI or not having an AI. The idea that our school president (Vincent D. Rougeau) would admit kids who can't cut the academic mustard at HC based on their sports ability is so silly it is hard consider that notion without giggling. So, the AI is not only irrelevant to our academic reputation and here and there hamstringing our athletic program, it is also harmful to ordinary presidential discretion. As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 10:23:45 GMT -5
At this point the AI is antiquated. The AI may have served a legit purpose 20 or 30 years ago in relation to academic integrity but most schools have reformed their athletic departments to ensure that academics take priority over "win at all costs"....especially at the FCS/mid-major level. The only purpose that the AI serves now is cost containment for schools that cannot afford to compete with their peers. Question for you guys......would you want Holy Cross to join America East instead of the Patriot IF your football program could stay in the Patriot as an associate member? Obviously there are scores of schools with superior academic reputations (in some cases far superior academic reputations) than HC and do NOT have an AI. Places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc. As a matter of fact we had a stronger academic reputation prior to aping the Ivies by creating/joining an AI league. One does not gain or lose an academic reputation based on which schools you play in your sports league. Obviously. (Again see, places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc.). Nor by having an AI or not having an AI. The idea that our school president (Vincent D. Rougeau) would admit kids who can't cut the academic mustard at HC based on their sports ability is so silly it is hard consider that notion without giggling. So, the AI is not only irrelevant to our academic reputation and here and there hamstringing our athletic program, it is also harmful to ordinary presidential discretion. As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth. Literally the only example of an athletic conference having an impact on the academic reputations of existing members is the Ivy League. Every year, students turn down offers of admission to places like Duke, Johns Hopkins, Notre Dame, Stanford and NYU, because "it was my dream to go to an Ivy League school".
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 10:31:53 GMT -5
At this point the AI is antiquated. The AI may have served a legit purpose 20 or 30 years ago in relation to academic integrity but most schools have reformed their athletic departments to ensure that academics take priority over "win at all costs"....especially at the FCS/mid-major level. The only purpose that the AI serves now is cost containment for schools that cannot afford to compete with their peers. Question for you guys...... would you want Holy Cross to join America East instead of the Patriot IF your football program could stay in the Patriot as an associate member?Maine UNH Vermont UMass-Lowell Holy Cross Bryant Albany Binghamton NJIT UMBC First, based on current PL bylaws, if any football-playing all-sports member left the league right now, the conference would either stop sponsoring football OR would have to add another all-sports member with football. League bylaws require a minimum of 5 such members. So if Holy Cross put the PL through that trouble, I'm not 100% sure they would let us stay as a football affiliate -- they'd first need to bring in someone like Marist as an all-sports member. As far as America East FOOTBALL, if the core member schools (UNH, Maine, Albany) wanted it to happen, it could. Right now you could invite Merrimack and immediately put together an AQ-qualifying AE football conference with the following: UNH, Maine, Albany, URI, Bryant, MerrimackFrom there, you could go after CCSU and Sacred Heart...maybe Holy Cross
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 30, 2022 10:55:59 GMT -5
CAA won't be admitting any new football affiliates in the near future. They're at 13 football members for 2023 with NCA&T joinibg. Either 12 or 13 all-sports members now too with the recent additions, I can't keep track. No suggestion it’ll be overnight (it took Stony Brook five or six years to go from Big South to CAA). Beyond that, it is understood future CAA football additions and subtractions are essentially unforeseeable. Kudos to Bryant on the football move. Who says Stony Brook, Albany, or any other CAA doesn't get a new president and AD who think going to FBS is the best move for the school?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 11:08:23 GMT -5
On what planet are Stony Brook or Albany getting invited to an FBS conference? Same could be said of just about any schools remaining in the CAA now that JMU has finally departed.
Delaware probably could have gotten into the MAC 15-20 years ago but that ship looks to have sailed...at least for now.
Only other CAA school that I could see looking at FBS football, and it's a super long shot, is if the ACC decides it wants Villanova and/or the Philly market and invites 'Nova to leave the Big East for all sports under the condition that they upgrade football and play games at the Eagles' stadium (or build one if there's room on or near campus). Of course, if it was just a matter of the media market, the ACC could also just as easily just invite Temple.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2022 11:15:28 GMT -5
On what planet are Stony Brook or Albany getting invited to an FBS conference? Same could be said of just about any schools remaining in the CAA now that JMU has finally departed. Delaware probably could have gotten into the MAC 15-20 years ago but that ship looks to have sailed...at least for now. Only other CAA school that I could see looking at FBS football, and it's a super long shot, is if the ACC decides it wants Villanova and/or the Philly market and invites 'Nova to leave the Big East for all sports under the condition that they upgrade football and play games at the Eagles' stadium (or build one if there's room on or near campus). Of course, if it was just a matter of the media market, the ACC could also just as easily just invite Temple. At least Philly is near the Atlantic Coast.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2022 11:22:19 GMT -5
At this point the AI is antiquated. The AI may have served a legit purpose 20 or 30 years ago in relation to academic integrity but most schools have reformed their athletic departments to ensure that academics take priority over "win at all costs"....especially at the FCS/mid-major level. The only purpose that the AI serves now is cost containment for schools that cannot afford to compete with their peers. Question for you guys......would you want Holy Cross to join America East instead of the Patriot IF your football program could stay in the Patriot as an associate member? Maine UNH Vermont UMass-Lowell Holy Cross Bryant Albany Binghamton NJIT UMBC Before the PL began, probably. Now, no. The PL and our six FB partner schools have grown on me. We can "have it all" in PL football as Coach Chesney said and AD Kit parrots.
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 30, 2022 11:32:16 GMT -5
On what planet are Stony Brook or Albany getting invited to an FBS conference? Same could be said of just about any schools remaining in the CAA now that JMU has finally departed. Delaware probably could have gotten into the MAC 15-20 years ago but that ship looks to have sailed...at least for now. Only other CAA school that I could see looking at FBS football, and it's a super long shot, is if the ACC decides it wants Villanova and/or the Philly market and invites 'Nova to leave the Big East for all sports under the condition that they upgrade football and play games at the Eagles' stadium (or build one if there's room on or near campus). Of course, if it was just a matter of the media market, the ACC could also just as easily just invite Temple. You don't know what is going to happen in the next 10-15 years with college athletics. The Power 5 is trying to break away from the rest of the schools.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 30, 2022 11:35:35 GMT -5
HC isn't budging from the PL in any way in the near future. As I and others have stated, we have become "interwoven" with the league in our identity...i.e 25% of our students are now PL varsity athletes...it's one of our main selling points as an institution today.
Also, with our slipping academic/overall reputation ovah the last 20-30 years, remaining in a league with schools like Colgate, Army, Navy, GTown etc is vital to bolster the school's brand at this point.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2022 11:47:15 GMT -5
HC isn't budging from the PL in any way in the near future. As I and others have stated, we have become "interwoven" with the league in our identity...i.e 25% of our students are now PL varsity athletes...it's one of our main selling points as an institution today. Also, with our slipping academic/overall reputation ovah the last 20-30 years, remaining in a league with schools like Colgate, Army, Navy, GTown etc is vital to bolster the school's brand at this point. I'd like to see the whole league advance with Holy Cross as opposed to Holy Cross attempting to advance by jumping leagues. If league jumping was a panacea, it would have leveled off because the strategy worked.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 30, 2022 11:56:55 GMT -5
> Villanova tried to move to FBS as a football member of the old Big East and was rejected by one or more Big East football-playing members because Temple had exclusive rights to play at the Eagles stadium, and wouldn't allow Villanova to play, and Villanova's alternate site, a new soccer stadium in Chester PA was deemed too small from a seating standpoint. Villanova does not have the space to build a new stadium on or near campus, and it would be difficult to expand its existing stadium because its a space-constrained site.
> HC is not joining the America East Conference. It offers zero value, even if AE were to absorb HockeyEast, which it won't.
> Some people seem either oblivious to, or didn't read threads on Holy Cross admissions. VR has set a goal for HC to be ranked in the Top 25 of national liberal arts colleges. No members of the AE are categorized as a national liberal arts college, whereas six of the 10 members of the PL are.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 12:08:40 GMT -5
> Villanova tried to move to FBS as a football member of the old Big East and was rejected by one or more Big East football-playing members because Temple had exclusive rights to play at the Eagles stadium, and wouldn't allow Villanova to play, and Villanova's alternate site, a new soccer stadium in Chester PA was deemed too small from a seating standpoint. Villanova does not have the space to build a new stadium on or near campus, and it would be difficult to expand its existing stadium because its a space-constrained site.> HC is not joining the America East Conference. It offers zero value, even if AE were to absorb HockeyEast, which it won't. > Some people seem either oblivious to, or didn't read threads on Holy Cross admissions. VR has set a goal for HC to be ranked in the Top 25 of national liberal arts colleges. No members of the AE are categorized as a national liberal arts college, whereas six of the 10 members of the PL are. Yes, I believe sometime around 2011 or 2012 Villanova looked into playing Big East football and their home site would have been the Philadelphia Union soccer stadium. At the time, Temple had been invited BACK to the Big East (this time for all sports) but they never ended up making it back to the conference before the split. At the time, Navy had also already announced that they would be joining the Big East for football, and again, the split took place before that move happened. So both Navy and Temple ended up in the AAC. I couldn't remember if Villanova got shot down via a conference vote or if the idea of moving up simply evaporated when the Big East football conference itself evaporated.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 30, 2022 12:12:49 GMT -5
No suggestion it’ll be overnight (it took Stony Brook five or six years to go from Big South to CAA). Beyond that, it is understood future CAA football additions and subtractions are essentially unforeseeable. Kudos to Bryant on the football move. Who says Stony Brook, Albany, or any other CAA doesn't get a new president and AD who think going to FBS is the best move for the school? Exactly. At some point the CAA may even talk to us about joining as a football school. And somebody can explain the logic that suggests that if we join a league with Richmond, W&M, and Villanova we'll lose academic prestige. LOL (Don't tell MIT [NEWMAC] and Stanford [PAC-12] because they would find that theory hilarious...Ditto Richmond, W&M, and Villanova BTW).
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 12:16:29 GMT -5
Who says Stony Brook, Albany, or any other CAA doesn't get a new president and AD who think going to FBS is the best move for the school? Exactly. At some point the CAA may even talk to us about joining as a football school. And somebody can explain the logic that suggests that if we join a league with Richmond, W&M, and Villanova we'll lose academic prestige. LOL (Don't tell MIT and Stanford because they would find that theory hilarious). The fact that the CAA was openly looking to add 3-4 all sports members in reaction to JMU leaving, and Holy Cross never once even came up in serious conversation, tells you everything you need to know. Our wagon is hitched to the PL. Is what it is. Totally agree with you on the academic thing. The idea that Holy Cross needs to remain in the PL to maintain our reputation is laughable.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 13:25:33 GMT -5
How many of us had our minds made up before we came up with a rationale to support our opinion? Possibly, for some in Mass Bryant would seem like a great addition. Or, some on Long Island would fantasize about Sony Brook or Albany. Or some because of prior connections would get excited about schools such as Villanova. And, more. CAA? America East? MAAC or as some call it the Catholic HS Athletic Assoc(CHSAA)? Yawn! I plead guilty to following preconceived notions. Maybe, it's a generation gap for some. I truly hope HC sticks to its academics and stays in the highly regarded PL. Carry on.
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Post by gks on Mar 30, 2022 13:53:27 GMT -5
A lot of these discussions stray to this topic of PL vs. no PL. For those who say have to stay in PL to maintain academic status can you explain how the following school maintain their economic prestige...
Stanford -> Pac 12 Vanderbilt -> SEC Northwestern -> Big Ten Rice -> Conference USA Richmond -> CAA
They seem to just fine in an athletics-oriented athletic league.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 30, 2022 14:05:38 GMT -5
I think what mm67 is trying to say is that he'd prefer us to stay in the Patriot League in order to continue affiliating with schools who have similar philosophies as to how athletics and academics are integrated.
Obviously, anyone who graduated almost two decades prior to the formation of the Colonial League knows that Holy Cross had a phenomenal reputation long before we decided to play football with Bucknell and Lafayette.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 14:24:57 GMT -5
HC has found a perfect landing spot with other similar high minded academic colleges. And, it's good for the brand. Attempting to pick holes is to no avail. No CAA. No Amer East, No MAAC or BE, No Pac12, No Big Ten. Can we be honest? Those who come up with various rationales for either weakening PL restrictions or leaving the PL altogether are primarily interested in sports. Repeat,Primarily! Most of these folks want to see HC teams compete on a higher level. If that were not the case then the PL with its high academics would be acceptable. And, there would be more concern about being competitive with other like-minded PL schools playing under the same rules. Isn't that true? I truly don't get it. It is not delusions of grandeur because there is nothing grand defeating Albany, et al. National championships would be nice but it certainly is not the primary motive for HC's existence. Why the hell should we care if HC defeats Stonybrook more than winning against Lehigh?
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Post by hcpride on Mar 30, 2022 14:42:01 GMT -5
I think what mm67 is trying to say is that he'd prefer us to stay in the Patriot League in order to continue affiliating with schools who have similar philosophies as to how athletics and academics are integrated. Obviously, anyone who graduated almost two decades prior to the formation of the Colonial League knows that Holy Cross had a phenomenal reputation long before we decided to play football with Bucknell and Lafayette. The fact that so many schools have superior academic reputations and are NOT in the PL and the fact that our academic reputation has declined since joining the PL cause some to question how helpful, if at all, PL membership is to our academic reputation. Others, not so much. Leaving PL football and looking for a better league for that sport (as two other PL members currently do) is certainly not a crazy idea.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 15:26:52 GMT -5
I think what mm67 is trying to say is that he'd prefer us to stay in the Patriot League in order to continue affiliating with schools who have similar philosophies as to how athletics and academics are integrated. Obviously, anyone who graduated almost two decades prior to the formation of the Colonial League knows that Holy Cross had a phenomenal reputation long before we decided to play football with Bucknell and Lafayette. True, the college landscape has indeed changed greatly over the past 50+ years. And it is for this reason HC joined with other like-minded kindred schools. Sure, I found competing against DivII Bucknell, the 2 L's puzzling at first. However as time unfolded I came to understand and rejoice in the move. Before the PL HC was in a no man's land, clearly not big time(FBS, today) not Div II. Actually there were seasons years ago that Div II teams would have kicked our butt. See, UMass, Lehigh for examples. We played a regional eastern f-ball schedule against the Ivies and lower level Div. I opponents excepting Syracuse and WP. F-ball could not be maintained as an independent. B-ball had some down years but was lifted by the great Blaney. We needed a level playing field with other schools to compete against while still maintaining our academic profile. The old Yankee Conference was a failure on many levels. (CAA?) We were not successful in the MAAC for a variety of reasons.The BE was a non-starter due to their level of emphasis among other issues. HC due to its size & integrity would not provide a "hiding place" for some lower academic level guys as did the BE schools. The Ivies were faced with similar problems of scheduling high academic schools.(F-ball) HC did not want to emphasize sports to the level found at other schools.It was believed (and I agree) a heavy emphasis on sports has a corrosive effect on academics. The Colonial league was created, Davidson & Wm. & Mary pulled out and eventually the CL morphed into the PL. No athletic scholarships(need based only) and no post-season play in football which is still my preference. Obviously despite misgivings of creeping emphasis these policies were changed. And now as predicted there is agitation from some to take steps to place a greater emphasis on sports. (eg bigger budgets, more scholarships, loosening requirements, playing at a higher level, etc).I tell ya' it's insidious, seductive, I respect and honor the true scholar athletes who competed for HC in the past during different times & today as well.. They have provided us with a legacy, an endowment, a tradition of success on the field and maybe most importantly off the field. Membership in the PL with other like-minded schools - high academics with a concurrent limited emphasis on athletics - provides a golden opportunity for HC to live its mission while fairly competing on an even playing field. HC steadfastly refuses to allow the athletic tail to wag the dog. Our membership in the PL is an attempt to keep the legacy of our past scholar-athletes and the legacy of HC alive. Oh raise thy voice. Peace & Respect To All
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 30, 2022 15:31:40 GMT -5
I think what mm67 is trying to say is that he'd prefer us to stay in the Patriot League in order to continue affiliating with schools who have similar philosophies as to how athletics and academics are integrated. Obviously, anyone who graduated almost two decades prior to the formation of the Colonial League knows that Holy Cross had a phenomenal reputation long before we decided to play football with Bucknell and Lafayette. The fact that so many schools have superior academic reputations and are NOT in the PL and the fact that our academic reputation has declined since joining the PL cause some to question how helpful, if at all, PL membership is to our academic reputation. Others, not so much. Leaving PL football and looking for a better league for that sport (as two other PL members currently do) is certainly not a crazy idea. Like the kinesiology majors on the W&M football team. ----------------------------- HC's academic reputation took a hit when Jesuit and parochial high schools began giving recommendations to secular, private colleges and universities for their students. When Regis HS in NYC was the equivalent of Stuyvesant or Bronx Science, the Jesuits wouldn't 'let high achieving students like Fauci go to Harvard, and HC became their destination and top choice. For Boston College, SAT scores, described as the "Average of the Median" SATs. (I think this means the median for each school, e.g., A&S, Education, etc) Verbal / MathClass of 1961 478 / 486 Class of 1968 558 / 574 Class of 1976 528 / 552 ,
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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 15:35:40 GMT -5
The fact that so many schools have superior academic reputations and are NOT in the PL and the fact that our academic reputation has declined since joining the PL cause some to question how helpful, if at all, PL membership is to our academic reputation. Others, not so much. Leaving PL football and looking for a better league for that sport (as two other PL members currently do) is certainly not a crazy idea. Like the kinesiology majors on the W&M football team. ----------------------------- HC's academic reputation took a hit when Jesuit and parochial high schools began giving recommendations to secular, private colleges and universities for their students. When Regis HS in NYC was the equivalent of Stuyvesant or Bronx Science, the Jesuits wouldn't 'let high achieving students like Fauci go to Harvard, and HC became their destination and top choice. For Boston College, SAT scores, described as the "Average of the Median" SATs. (I think this means the median for each school, e.g., A&S, Education, etc) Verbal / MathClass of 1961 478 / 486 Class of 1968 558 / 574 Class of 1976 528 / 552 , Or, the Seniors on the Villanova basketball team finally taking but still failing Freshman English.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2022 18:01:31 GMT -5
Exactly. At some point the CAA may even talk to us about joining as a football school. And somebody can explain the logic that suggests that if we join a league with Richmond, W&M, and Villanova we'll lose academic prestige. LOL (Don't tell MIT and Stanford because they would find that theory hilarious). The fact that the CAA was openly looking to add 3-4 all sports members in reaction to JMU leaving, and Holy Cross never once even came up in serious conversation, tells you everything you need to know. Our wagon is hitched to the PL. Is what it is. Totally agree with you on the academic thing. The idea that Holy Cross needs to remain in the PL to maintain our reputation is laughable. Richmond, Villanova and Bill and Mary may be similar academically to Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate, our other founding core PL members. (W&M is kind of a founding member, too actually) But I don't find HC being a little home wrecker, breaking up the league and running off with a new league appealing. A few years later a new league will show up with a box of chocolates and flowers and we'll run off with them. Too much league jumping. Schools don't seem to want to do the hard work to improve their current league together with their partner schools. They aren't making more national LACs founded in the nineteenth century. Let's hang on to the peers we have.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 30, 2022 19:26:21 GMT -5
At this point the AI is antiquated. The AI may have served a legit purpose 20 or 30 years ago in relation to academic integrity but most schools have reformed their athletic departments to ensure that academics take priority over "win at all costs"....especially at the FCS/mid-major level. The only purpose that the AI serves now is cost containment for schools that cannot afford to compete with their peers. Question for you guys......would you want Holy Cross to join America East instead of the Patriot IF your football program could stay in the Patriot as an associate member? Agree Obviously there are scores of schools with superior academic reputations (in some cases far superior academic reputations) than HC and do NOT have an AI. Places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc. As a matter of fact we had a stronger academic reputation prior to aping the Ivies by creating/joining an AI league. One does not gain or lose an academic reputation based on which schools you play in your sports league. Obviously. (Again see, places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc.). Nor by having an AI or not having an AI. The idea that our school president (Vincent D. Rougeau) would admit kids who can't cut the academic mustard at HC based on their sports ability is so silly it is hard consider that notion without giggling. So, the AI is not only irrelevant to our academic reputation and here and there hamstringing our athletic program, it is also harmful to ordinary presidential discretion. As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth. Not sure playing a schedule vs 11 teams that can redshirt and have lower academic standard is a road to sustained success.
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