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Post by mm67 on Mar 30, 2022 20:47:49 GMT -5
Agree Obviously there are scores of schools with superior academic reputations (in some cases far superior academic reputations) than HC and do NOT have an AI. Places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc. As a matter of fact we had a stronger academic reputation prior to aping the Ivies by creating/joining an AI league. One does not gain or lose an academic reputation based on which schools you play in your sports league. Obviously. (Again see, places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc.). Nor by having an AI or not having an AI. The idea that our school president (Vincent D. Rougeau) would admit kids who can't cut the academic mustard at HC based on their sports ability is so silly it is hard consider that notion without giggling. So, the AI is not only irrelevant to our academic reputation and here and there hamstringing our athletic program, it is also harmful to ordinary presidential discretion. As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth. WHY?Not sure playing a schedule vs 11 teams that can redshirt and have lower academic standard is a road to sustained success.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2022 21:15:32 GMT -5
The strategy of using the PL as the easiest on-ramp to the post season in the country and then "Any given Saturday" in the FCS playoffs is working well. Let's not muck it up.
How many FCS tournament berths would our squads earn out of the CAA the past three seasons? Three, two, one or none?
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Post by hc87 on Mar 30, 2022 21:45:47 GMT -5
The PL has been a good league for HC football (which was its original intent...a football league only)....it's been an abject failure (in terms of wins/losses, program enhancement etc) in just about every other varsity sport at HC.....not implying we should leave the PL, just stating the facts.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 31, 2022 2:50:14 GMT -5
Agree Obviously there are scores of schools with superior academic reputations (in some cases far superior academic reputations) than HC and do NOT have an AI. Places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc. As a matter of fact we had a stronger academic reputation prior to aping the Ivies by creating/joining an AI league. One does not gain or lose an academic reputation based on which schools you play in your sports league. Obviously. (Again see, places like MIT, University of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, etc., etc.). Nor by having an AI or not having an AI. The idea that our school president (Vincent D. Rougeau) would admit kids who can't cut the academic mustard at HC based on their sports ability is so silly it is hard consider that notion without giggling. So, the AI is not only irrelevant to our academic reputation and here and there hamstringing our athletic program, it is also harmful to ordinary presidential discretion. As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth. Not sure playing a schedule vs 11 teams that can redshirt and have lower academic standard is a road to sustained success.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 31, 2022 2:59:21 GMT -5
Agree… As far as football league's go, I'd MUCH prefer to see us in the CAA with a stronger but doable schedule like Stony Brook happens to have this year: URI, UMASS, Richmond, W&M, UNH, Fordham, Maine, Albany, Morgan State, Towson, Monmouth. Not sure playing a schedule vs 11 teams that can redshirt and have lower academic standard is a road to sustained success. My current preference for CAA football membership with a CAA football schedule is with the understanding our current football goal is to create a program with consistent deep runs in the FCS playoffs. If our goal was to consistently challenge for the PL football championship or to be competitive v PL football opponents or to participate in PL football I would have a different take in regards to HC football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2022 7:53:05 GMT -5
Does Bill & Mary consistently make deep runs in the FCS playoffs? Since joining the CAA in 2007, it has tied for first in the one division CAA twice, and lost both times in the second round. (W&M did make the semi-finals when it tied for 3rd in a two-division CAA). W&M's conference record for the last five years (excluding a 3 game 2020 season): 3-5, 0-8, 3-4, 3-5, 4-4. W&M has twice as many undergraduates as HC.
University of Richmond, with about the same number of undergraduates as HC, has done much better: ran deep in 2007-2009, and a national championship,, and in 2014-16. But Univ. of Richmond is also parsimonious about athletics. Fewer than 400 athletes on its varsity teams. And no M/W ice hockey which is a huge savings. HC could try emulating Richmond, if it discontinued ice hockey, and used the savings to spend more on football and hoops.
As for Villanova, when men's hoops has a $4 million 'profit', as happened in 2019-20, that helps underwrite the cost of football and other sports.
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Post by gks on Mar 31, 2022 8:14:44 GMT -5
Does the Patriot League have an academic alliance like the Big Ten? btaa.orgIf they don't then association with the Pennsylvania, "like-minded" schools is meaningless. Because Holy Cross is not getting anything out of the association athletically.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2022 11:08:47 GMT -5
Does the Patriot League have an academic alliance like the Big Ten? btaa.orgIf they don't then association with the Pennsylvania, "like-minded" schools is meaningless. Because Holy Cross is not getting anything out of the association athletically. The "three-peat" was chopped liver?
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 31, 2022 11:10:36 GMT -5
I would like to see the PL engage in self-promotion, as the Big10 does. However, IMHO, that does not mean HC gets "nothing" from our association with our fellow PL members..
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Post by gks on Mar 31, 2022 11:15:00 GMT -5
Does the Patriot League have an academic alliance like the Big Ten? btaa.orgIf they don't then association with the Pennsylvania, "like-minded" schools is meaningless. Because Holy Cross is not getting anything out of the association athletically. The "three-peat" was chopped liver? Of course not. What you're seeing right now with HC Football is an exception. As long as Chesney is here it is not out of the question that HC will win the league every year. Right now it's a terrible league other than HC.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2022 11:28:21 GMT -5
The "three-peat" was chopped liver? Of course not. What you're seeing right now with HC Football is an exception. As long as Chesney is here it is not out of the question that HC will win the league every year. Right now it's a terrible league other than HC. I hope two things happen. One, HC maintains excellence if any transition from Coach Chesney occurs down the line. And two, the other PL FB teams respond to HC's dominance by matching the resources HC invests in FB, which must be the highest in the league, and the whole league becomes more competitive in FCS. One thing HC did right was to pony up to keep Chesney and a skilled staff, which if it means the cupboard is bare for a MBB coaching change this year, I'm OK with.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 31, 2022 11:29:00 GMT -5
For some reason the commenters (myself included) seem to be "talking" past each other. For instance I can understand the rationale for rooting for HC to win on the field & court against our PL siblings. But, I don't understand the motivation to leave the PL, place a greater emphasis on athletics and compete on a higher level. I am trying to find the motivations not the rationale, the reasons. Obviously the reason to leave the PL is to compete on a higher level. But, why would HC want to do this? What Is the motivation among some posters? Is it a firm belief that HC academics would improve? If so, how? Are there other motivations not apparent to me? Why leave the PL? What is the benefit to the college? Peace to all.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 31, 2022 11:32:56 GMT -5
mm67, I have wondered much the same. Are losses to better teams supposed to hurt less? How about we stop talking about bailing out on the PL and actually start being more competitive across the board where we are? Right now posts that cry over our losing, but call for a move to a league where losing will be even more likely, seem a bit out of line with reality.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 31, 2022 11:36:55 GMT -5
rgs As I'm sure you are aware, you are held in high esteem by your classmates and no doubt by the posters on this board. Your influence counts.
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Post by gks on Mar 31, 2022 11:39:29 GMT -5
For some reason the commenters (myself included) seem to be "talking" past each other. For instance I can understand the rationale for rooting for HC to win on the field & court against our PL siblings. But, I don't understand the motivation to leave the PL, place a greater emphasis on athletics and compete on a higher level. I am trying to find the motivations not the rationale, the reasons. Obviously the reason to leave the PL is to compete on a higher level. But, why would HC want to do this? What Is the motivation among some posters? Is it a firm belief that HC academics would improve? If so, how? Are there other motivations not apparent to me? Why leave the PL? What is the benefit to the college? Peace to all. You have a football coaching staff and I believe an administration (not to mention deep pocketed alumni) that are ready and want to compete at a higher level. Winning PL titles is not good enough for them. Again...there are plenty of schools that compete at a high level and still have a high academic profile. Why are people afraid to excel in both? There is not one lick of past evidence that says HC will become an athletics cesspool. Don't be afraid and embrace what the new goals are and will be for the football program moving forward. A PL championship is NOT good enough for Coach Chesney.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 31, 2022 11:55:18 GMT -5
...nor does it have to be. That is why HC competes in the FCS Championship playoffs for which we are already eligible. However, in most other sports (of the many in which HC competes) we could have to improve substantially for our record to be considered mediocre. That is a sad reality. It certainly does not warrant a move to a higher (and tougher) league. Besides, at this point, who actually might want us?
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2022 12:07:02 GMT -5
mm67, I have wondered much the same. Are losses to better teams supposed to hurt less? How about we stop talking about bailing out on the PL and actually start being more competitive across the board where we are? Right now posts that cry over our losing, but call for a move to a league where losing will be even more likely, seem a bit out of line with reality. In hockey we are regularly losing to AIC which hurts. If we moved to HE and lost to BC it wouldn't hurt any more or less it would just cost a couple of million more per year. When HC consistently beats the AICs and Bentleys and wins the AHA, then it would make sense to seek to move up because that wouldn't alter HC's overall identity as a PL founding core member. To move up lock stock and barrel to a tougher main league when we are losing in most sports in the weaker PL sounds unwise and could start HC on a never ending league realignment carousel. To move just football to a tougher league, cherry-picking the one sport another league MIGHT accept as a one-off associate member would mean knifing our PL co-founders in the back as well as rolling the dice that HC could maintain excellence post-Chesney in a league with large State Universities with many times the number of students HC has. We'd be asking HC alumni to compete with their athletic donations against schools that might have 10-20,O00 more alumni AND a State legislature to fund them. (I'll exclude UNH. I assume their legislature throws nickels around like they were man hole covers.🙂)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2022 12:12:35 GMT -5
For some reason the commenters (myself included) seem to be "talking" past each other. For instance I can understand the rationale for rooting for HC to win on the field & court against our PL siblings. But, I don't understand the motivation to leave the PL, place a greater emphasis on athletics and compete on a higher level. I am trying to find the motivations not the rationale, the reasons. Obviously the reason to leave the PL is to compete on a higher level. But, why would HC want to do this? What Is the motivation among some posters? Is it a firm belief that HC academics would improve? If so, how? Are there other motivations not apparent to me? Why leave the PL? What is the benefit to the college? Peace to all. You have a football coaching staff and I believe an administration (not to mention deep pocketed alumni) that are ready and want to compete at a higher level. Winning PL titles is not good enough for them. Again...there are plenty of schools that compete at a high level and still have a high academic profile. Why are people afraid to excel in both? There is not one lick of past evidence that says HC will become an athletics cesspool. Don't be afraid and embrace what the new goals are and will be for the football program moving forward. A PL championship is NOT good enough for Coach Chesney. Holy Cross alums are not as deep-pocketed as you think. HC is in the top quartile of FCS schools when it comes to spending on athletics. Alums/boosters fund about 10-11 percent of the annual athletics budget for schools in this quartile. For Holy Cross, the percentage is a bit over six percent.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 31, 2022 12:21:54 GMT -5
Phreek- I'd need more detail before I agreed that HC alums are not deep-pocketed. When you say that alums/boosters fund a bit over six percent of the athletic budget, does that include just donations specifically designated for athletics? When an alum or supporter makes an undesignated donation to the college m doesn't some of that $$$ end up in the athletic budget?
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2022 12:26:56 GMT -5
Phreek- I'd need more detail before I agreed that HC alums are not deep-pocketed. When you say that alums/boosters fund a bit over six percent of the athletic budget, does that include just donations specifically designated for athletics? When an alum or supporter makes an undesignated donation to the college m doesn't some of that $$$ end up in the athletic budget? HC is in the top quartile, with the numbers possibly swayed by a few schools with some real whales who gave huge donations during the time frame measured. So we might be in the top 20-22% overall? But still no State legislature to supplement alumni donations like many FCS schools have. And the Worcester City Council isn't walking through that door with a large contribution. They would be more likely to ask for a large P.I.L.O.T. payment.
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tj
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 144
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Post by tj on Mar 31, 2022 12:45:21 GMT -5
Definitely no. Other than geography no benefits to that association
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Post by football44 on Mar 31, 2022 13:30:06 GMT -5
For some reason the commenters (myself included) seem to be "talking" past each other. For instance I can understand the rationale for rooting for HC to win on the field & court against our PL siblings. But, I don't understand the motivation to leave the PL, place a greater emphasis on athletics and compete on a higher level. I am trying to find the motivations not the rationale, the reasons. Obviously the reason to leave the PL is to compete on a higher level. But, why would HC want to do this? What Is the motivation among some posters? Is it a firm belief that HC academics would improve? If so, how? Are there other motivations not apparent to me? Why leave the PL? What is the benefit to the college? Peace to all. You have a football coaching staff and I believe an administration (not to mention deep pocketed alumni) that are ready and want to compete at a higher level. Winning PL titles is not good enough for them. Again...there are plenty of schools that compete at a high level and still have a high academic profile. Why are people afraid to excel in both? There is not one lick of past evidence that says HC will become an athletics cesspool. Don't be afraid and embrace what the new goals are and will be for the football program moving forward. A PL championship is NOT good enough for Coach Chesney. gks is absolutely right. If Coach Chesney and his staff had their way we'd be playing in the CAA right now. Do you notice that a number of the kids we are recruiting are also being recruited by CAA teams and some FBS schools. We are gravitating away from the kids that want the Ivies. This isn't about academics but about a higher level of football. It also doesn't affect our academic standards either. The CAA is highly looked upon in the FCS. Holy Cross could lose 3-4 games a year (don't want to) but still be chosen to play in the playoffs. Just an opinion!
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 31, 2022 14:24:52 GMT -5
Does Bill & Mary consistently make deep runs in the FCS playoffs? Since joining the CAA in 2007, it has tied for first in the one division CAA twice, and lost both times in the second round. (W&M did make the semi-finals when it tied for 3rd in a two-division CAA). W&M's conference record for the last five years (excluding a 3 game 2020 season): 3-5, 0-8, 3-4, 3-5, 4-4. W&M has twice as many undergraduates as HC. University of Richmond, with about the same number of undergraduates as HC, has done much better: ran deep in 2007-2009, and a national championship,, and in 2014-16. But Univ. of Richmond is also parsimonious about athletics. Fewer than 400 athletes on its varsity teams. And no M/W ice hockey which is a huge savings. HC could try emulating Richmond, if it discontinued ice hockey, and used the savings to spend more on football and hoops. As for Villanova, when men's hoops has a $4 million 'profit', as happened in 2019-20, that helps underwrite the cost of football and other sports. In 2001 and 2004 in the Atlantic 10 (it was the CAA) they made the tourney. In 2004, they made the semis.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2022 14:27:16 GMT -5
IIRC, HC averages 5.25 OOC "opportunities" each year over a four year cycle. Coach Chesney has succeeded in most everything he has attempted. League change might be too big a push (might not be, he's got more pull than PL loyalists like me) but it will be exciting to see how he and Kit use these opportunities in future years.
I would imagine HC becomes more and more attractive to CAA level teams as an opponent as we keep winning and add value to the other team's strength of schedule.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 31, 2022 14:29:49 GMT -5
The PL has been a good league for HC football (which was its original intent...a football league only)....it's been an abject failure (in terms of wins/losses, program enhancement etc) in just about every other varsity sport at HC.....not implying we should leave the PL, just stating the facts. The dirty little secret is our non revenue sports we’re really bad going back to the 70s and 80s.
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