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Post by Ignutz on Apr 1, 2022 8:25:03 GMT -5
Lol buried in the 1980's PL schools don't care about football.
Georgtown is a basketball school Bucknell is a basketball school Fordham wants to be a basketball school Colgate is a basketball power You wouldn't care but Bucknell has sucked for 20 years Georgetown has sucked for 20 years No titles nothing! Right now HC is the one with the indoor facility HC is the one raising the coaches salaries. HC is blowing out the PL competition. HC is bringing in the donations. HC is the one winning an FBS game I saw on Any given Saturday people say this HC run is not that special. Yeah ok Lehigh fans. Look at the teams you beat in the 2000's Revisionist history at its finest. PLUS THE PATRIOT LEAGUE BRINGS ZERO FANS TO FITTON! While the Patriot League overall doesn't really seem to care about any sport, I would argue that more of our members would be considered "football schools" than would be considered "basketball schools". PL football may have left a lot to be desired this past decade as far as the product on the field, however the league is a basketball wasteland IMO. Colgate -- before their current run, which is bordering on dynasty-level, Colgate struggled to average 500+ fans a game. Definitely a football school historically without question. Of course I absolutely welcome their recent rise in hoops and hope that HC and Bucknell get back to prior levels of success so we can have a true "big three" in the league. Lehigh - football school Lafayette - would say more of a football school mainly fed by the rivalry with LU. But they do have a decent basketball following despite historically being pretty mediocre with flashes of success at the PL level. Georgetown - obviously a basketball school Army & Navy - obviously football is king at the academies. They draw absolute flies in hoops except the Army-Navy games and when Navy hosts that USAA Classic or whatever it's called to kickoff the season in Annapolis. Bucknell - 100% a basketball school. Holy Cross - Historically I'd say 50/50. Would argue that our history and tradition in both football and basketball are equally rich. Very sad to see what's become of our basketball program the last 10 years. I imagine it's similar to how HC football fans felt from 1994-2004. Fordham - Despite the fact that they're in the A-10, Fordham is definitely a football school both as far as on-field performance and fan/alumni engagement. I'm close friends with a number of Fordham alum as you might imagine and I can tell you they get more excited when Holy Cross comes to town in football than for any basketball game at Rose Hill aside from the rare times they host St. John's. BU - Hockey school Loyola - Lacrosse school If I'm thinking Lehigh, I'm thinking wrestling.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 1, 2022 10:56:30 GMT -5
The problem is that some posters have champagne tastes on beer budgets. Holy Cross is big on the participation model because it is the students and their parents who are underwriting the lion's share of the costs of HC's athletic program, --not the alumni, not the fans in Worcester County. For William & Mary, alumni contributions and restricted endowment funds provided $3.1 million in football revenue. For HC, the number is about a tenth of that. And how does W&M balance the books to cover losses in the athletic program, e.g., football, hoops? Student fees. $2,200 a year x 7,000 students = an account in balance. Your financial comparison between HC and W&M makes the Duffner coached team's wipe out of the (undefeated?) Tribe in Williamsburg all the sweeter and shows you the value of good coaching. If you can't spend money on everything, spend it on coaching, which HC has done. I like an approach of giving coaches a D-1 opportunity at HC on an "earn it" first contract and then competing hard to retain the winning coaches and not being hand cuffed by multi year guaranteed contracts with the losing coaches. I understand the industry trend is different.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 1, 2022 11:12:19 GMT -5
A football-only move would require less change than an all-sport move but I can’t envision a scenario where the PL would let us stay if we leave for football which is the only place we’re currently adding value. A compromise position would be to re-evaluate the self-imposed limitations in our athletic model while improving our results in the PL. As for what better athletics can do for us, those benefits would include increased name recognition and applications, as well as increased alumni engagement and donations. We can debate how much benefit we might get in these areas under certain scenarios and whether those benefits justify the increased costs. The current reality is we are mostly invisible outside NY, NJ, PA and New England. I think it is understood that Patriot League football schools would not want us to move our team out of PL football. Of course, it is also understood that we already have 2 PL teams that play football outside the PL, three or four PL schools that don’t play football at all, and two teams that do play PL football but are otherwise unaffiliated. Soooo, it is not a crazy notion to depart PL football - nor are your suggestions on a common sense compromise.
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Post by gks on Apr 1, 2022 13:12:25 GMT -5
A football-only move would require less change than an all-sport move but I can’t envision a scenario where the PL would let us stay if we leave for football which is the only place we’re currently adding value. A compromise position would be to re-evaluate the self-imposed limitations in our athletic model while improving our results in the PL. As for what better athletics can do for us, those benefits would include increased name recognition and applications, as well as increased alumni engagement and donations. We can debate how much benefit we might get in these areas under certain scenarios and whether those benefits justify the increased costs. The current reality is we are mostly invisible outside NY, NJ, PA and New England. I think it is understood that Patriot League football schools would not want us to move our team out of PL football. Of course, it is also understood that we already have 2 PL teams that play football outside the PL, three or four PL schools that don’t play football at all, and two teams that do play PL football but are otherwise unaffiliated. Soooo, it is not a crazy notion to depart PL football - nor are your suggestions on a common sense compromise. The Patriot League schools did not want Holy Cross to reinstate football scholarships.... I don't think the Patriot League schools wanted Fordham to begin football scholarships.....
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 1, 2022 13:54:54 GMT -5
I think it is understood that Patriot League football schools would not want us to move our team out of PL football. Of course, it is also understood that we already have 2 PL teams that play football outside the PL, three or four PL schools that don’t play football at all, and two teams that do play PL football but are otherwise unaffiliated. Soooo, it is not a crazy notion to depart PL football - nor are your suggestions on a common sense compromise. The Patriot League schools did not want Holy Cross to reinstate football scholarships.... I don't think the Patriot League schools wanted Fordham to begin football scholarships..... The first statement is not accurate. The second statement is accurate. Once Fordham took the "red pill" and told the PL to either move it or lose it with regards to football scholarships, at the time the schools most in favor of going scholarship were Lehigh and Colgate. The way it worked with basketball scholarships in decades prior was the following: 1) League was formed non-scholarship for all sports 2) Fordham announced they were leaving over the basketball scholarship issue. The league let them walk and they soon landed in the A-10. Their last NCAA appearance is still back when they won the PL in 1993. 3) Holy Cross in 1999 or so announced we were going to add M/W basketball scholarships. This time the league bent and by about 2007-2008 the last school (Lafayette) had a full complement.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 1, 2022 13:58:07 GMT -5
The problem is that some posters have champagne tastes on beer budgets. Holy Cross is big on the participation model because it is the students and their parents who are underwriting the lion's share of the costs of HC's athletic program, --not the alumni, not the fans in Worcester County. For William & Mary, alumni contributions and restricted endowment funds provided $3.1 million in football revenue. For HC, the number is about a tenth of that. And how does W&M balance the books to cover losses in the athletic program, e.g., football, hoops? Student fees. $2,200 a year x 7,000 students = an account in balance. William & Mary also doesn't have as many sports as us. No lacrosse, no hockey. Not sure if they have rowing but I imagine the schools location in the very much nautical Tidewater region in Virginia.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 1, 2022 14:00:44 GMT -5
While the Patriot League overall doesn't really seem to care about any sport, I would argue that more of our members would be considered "football schools" than would be considered "basketball schools". PL football may have left a lot to be desired this past decade as far as the product on the field, however the league is a basketball wasteland IMO. Colgate -- before their current run, which is bordering on dynasty-level, Colgate struggled to average 500+ fans a game. Definitely a football school historically without question. Of course I absolutely welcome their recent rise in hoops and hope that HC and Bucknell get back to prior levels of success so we can have a true "big three" in the league. Lehigh - football school Lafayette - would say more of a football school mainly fed by the rivalry with LU. But they do have a decent basketball following despite historically being pretty mediocre with flashes of success at the PL level. Georgetown - obviously a basketball school Army & Navy - obviously football is king at the academies. They draw absolute flies in hoops except the Army-Navy games and when Navy hosts that USAA Classic or whatever it's called to kickoff the season in Annapolis. Bucknell - 100% a basketball school. Holy Cross - Historically I'd say 50/50. Would argue that our history and tradition in both football and basketball are equally rich. Very sad to see what's become of our basketball program the last 10 years. I imagine it's similar to how HC football fans felt from 1994-2004. Fordham - Despite the fact that they're in the A-10, Fordham is definitely a football school both as far as on-field performance and fan/alumni engagement. I'm close friends with a number of Fordham alum as you might imagine and I can tell you they get more excited when Holy Cross comes to town in football than for any basketball game at Rose Hill aside from the rare times they host St. John's. BU - Hockey school Loyola - Lacrosse school If I'm thinking Lehigh, I'm thinking wrestling. True, certainly their program that's most relevant nationally as far as competing at the highest level. But I meant more in terms of engagement, support and visibility. Despite the terrific tradition that Lehigh wrestling brings to the table, I imagine that the support and following for football surpasses it. I'd place wrestling second fiddle at LU along with Men's Basketball, maybe slightly ahead of basketball which is still saying a lot.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 1, 2022 14:36:27 GMT -5
The Patriot League schools did not want Holy Cross to reinstate football scholarships.... I don't think the Patriot League schools wanted Fordham to begin football scholarships..... The first statement is not accurate. The second statement is accurate. Once Fordham took the "red pill" and told the PL to either move it or lose it with regards to football scholarships, at the time the schools most in favor of going scholarship were Lehigh and Colgate. The way it worked with basketball scholarships in decades prior was the following: 1) League was formed non-scholarship for all sports 2) Fordham announced they were leaving over the basketball scholarship issue. The league let them walk and they soon landed in the A-10. Their last NCAA appearance is still back when they won the PL in 1993. 3) Holy Cross in 1999 or so announced we were going to add M/W basketball scholarships. This time the league bent and by about 2007-2008 the last school (Lafayette) had a full complement. I always thought if Father Brooks announced to the league Presidents that Holy Cross was accepting the NCAA 1-AA auto bid that was due the league when we had the number one ranked team in the country, the other Presidents would have said, "Certainly and bring home hardware for the league!" To me it was a no-brainer but I have no clue of what the on campus and in league conversations, if any, were at that time. I thought these intelligent Leaders would understand the number one national ranking deserved flexibility in a policy that ultimately ended up scrapped. Again, don't know any details.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 1, 2022 15:45:04 GMT -5
The dirty little secret is our non revenue sports we’re really bad going back to the 70s and 80s. I wouldn't say "really bad" but most of our sports then not named M/W basketball, football, baseball and maybe track were playing at the D2/D3 level in their sport. No women's sports at HC in the 70s, no women until 1972 and no full enrollment until 1975. On the men's side, yes, in the 70s sports like soccer were very much underfunded and playing local colleges of every shape and size. Had a lot to do with our leaving the Yankee Conference as soon as we joined it.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 1, 2022 16:05:56 GMT -5
The first statement is not accurate. The second statement is accurate. Once Fordham took the "red pill" and told the PL to either move it or lose it with regards to football scholarships, at the time the schools most in favor of going scholarship were Lehigh and Colgate. The way it worked with basketball scholarships in decades prior was the following: 1) League was formed non-scholarship for all sports 2) Fordham announced they were leaving over the basketball scholarship issue. The league let them walk and they soon landed in the A-10. Their last NCAA appearance is still back when they won the PL in 1993. 3) Holy Cross in 1999 or so announced we were going to add M/W basketball scholarships. This time the league bent and by about 2007-2008 the last school (Lafayette) had a full complement. I always thought if Father Brooks announced to the league Presidents that Holy Cross was accepting the NCAA 1-AA auto bid that was due the league when we had the number one ranked team in the country, the other Presidents would have said, "Certainly and bring home hardware for the league!" To me it was a no-brainer but I have no clue of what the on campus and in league conversations, if any, were at that time. I thought these intelligent Leaders would understand the number one national ranking deserved flexibility in a policy that ultimately ended up scrapped. Again, don't know any details. Father Brooks hated those playoffs and was not shy about stating it publicly. He wasn't going to let them interfere with his grand experiment (or, as the more cynical among us would say 'not ruffle the feathers of the Ivy League with any post season nonsense') And that was when it was a 12 team tournament so some schools only played 3 games.
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Post by purplehaze on Apr 1, 2022 16:23:47 GMT -5
... and all this on the 6th page about the ludicrous suggestion of Bryant joining the PL - Can we put a halt to this thread and start a new one on the subject actually being discussed ?
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 1, 2022 16:33:04 GMT -5
... and all this on the 6th page about the ludicrous suggestion of Bryant joining the PL - Can we put a halt to this thread and start a new one on the subject actually being discussed ? I'll knock it off after this. Just want to respond to Tim by saying the new playoffs as well as the new sub-division did take some getting used to as they felt rinky dink after growing up with the BC-HC game as the grand finale each season and for Father Brooks it might have felt twice as rinky dink because he had that rivalry game in his life for twice as long as us at that point.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 1, 2022 17:52:21 GMT -5
Fr. Brooks was my teacher, my hero. Fr. Brooks & I continued on a long line of communication both in person and in snail mail. We met In Worcester, Storrs, & Florida among other places. No-one I have ever met loved HC as much as did Fr. Brooks. He was wonderful. He was heroic. He had a vision for HC. The school was to be known not primarily for its athletics but for its academics. He deemphasized HC sports with the expectation that HC would grow on an academic journey to maintain its position as one of the very finest LAC and the "flagship of Catholic higher education." He was against post season football playoffs. He said, Mike they ought to give these guys competing post season a saliva test. With all the time and stress of football how can our guys study & excel in the classroom. Some have called for taking the handcuffs off to promote their personal dream. Ridiculous. HC80 said my comments were "inane. " He is an ignorant, young man.Well, if my comments were inane so were the views of the greatest president in the history of HC. And, this comment from HC80 was nothing more than the bleating of a very small impotent poster. He should keep his inane insults to himself. Maybe, he owes an apology for his poisonous drivel. Dismissed youngster. I realize we have some jock happy posters TBT some on this board are merely venting their spleen. They do not have a clue.TBT, thankfully none on this board have any influence. Carry on.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 1, 2022 18:38:31 GMT -5
Getting back to Bryant, who would their fiercest traditional rival have been before they took the leap to D-1, Stonehill? How about now, Sacred Heart or Quinnipiac? They wouldn't be the worst addition if we had defections but I think you only jump leagues if there is a real serious issue. The disruption isn't worth it generally. I thought they fit like a glove in the NEC when they moved up.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Apr 1, 2022 19:05:09 GMT -5
6 pages about Bryant. Who gives a rat's ass.
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Post by spenser on Apr 1, 2022 20:11:25 GMT -5
6 pages about Bryant. Who gives a rat's ass. Reality strikes!! ,
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 1, 2022 21:17:47 GMT -5
Foley, you either didn't read the University of Utah's report, or you don't read the Title IX reports on the Dept. of Education's website, or both. For example, as acknowledged in the Dept. of Education's instructions for schools when preparing their Title IX reports, the Title IX reports are highly aggregated., particularly the data on the revenue side. As a bonus, the link below is to an audit of Bill & Mary's athletics revenue and expense reporting for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2020. The audit displays details on revenue by source, and expenses by category. This audit has some of the detail in the NCAA revenue and expense report. For example, W&M's football expenses exceeded revenue by nearly $3 million. W&M's football coaches were paid $2,036,000; football team travel cost $465,000, etc., etc. About 60 percent of total football revenue came from alumni donors and the endowment (restricted endowment funds for football). Media rights generated a whopping $21,000. Detail is also provided on the Tribe's men and women's basketball program. Men's hoops spent more on recruiting than football did. See: www.wm.edu/offices/financialoperations/documents/wmncaa2020.pdfLiterally pages 40-50 of that Utah report are the same numbers in the DOE report.
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 1, 2022 21:18:51 GMT -5
The problem is that some posters have champagne tastes on beer budgets. Holy Cross is big on the participation model because it is the students and their parents who are underwriting the lion's share of the costs of HC's athletic program, --not the alumni, not the fans in Worcester County. For William & Mary, alumni contributions and restricted endowment funds provided $3.1 million in football revenue. For HC, the number is about a tenth of that. And how does W&M balance the books to cover losses in the athletic program, e.g., football, hoops? Student fees. $2,200 a year x 7,000 students = an account in balance. William & Mary also doesn't have as many sports as us. No lacrosse, no hockey. Not sure if they have rowing but I imagine the schools location in the very much nautical Tidewater region in Virginia. William and Mary has lacrosse tribeathletics.com/news/2022/3/31/womens-lacrosse-lax-to-host-drexel-for-senior-day.aspx
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 1, 2022 21:20:25 GMT -5
Getting back to Bryant, who would their fiercest traditional rival have been before they took the leap to D-1, Stonehill? How about now, Sacred Heart or Quinnipiac? They wouldn't be the worst addition if we had defections but I think you only jump leagues if there is a real serious issue. The disruption isn't worth it generally. I thought they fit like a glove in the NEC when they moved up. Depends on the sport...Bryant baseball was top of the conference with Franklin Pierce when they went D-1. FP is now second in the NE-10 to the SNHU program. SNHU right now would beat HC eight out of 10 games games. SNHU has had eleven draft picks since 2011.
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Post by thecrossisback on Apr 2, 2022 5:50:05 GMT -5
Getting back to Bryant, who would their fiercest traditional rival have been before they took the leap to D-1, Stonehill? How about now, Sacred Heart or Quinnipiac? They wouldn't be the worst addition if we had defections but I think you only jump leagues if there is a real serious issue. The disruption isn't worth it generally. I thought they fit like a glove in the NEC when they moved up. Depends on the sport...Bryant baseball was top of the conference with Franklin Pierce when they went D-1. FP is now second in the NE-10 to the SNHU program. SNHU right now would beat HC eight out of 10 games games. SNHU has had eleven draft picks since 2011. Just to be clear, they would beat Harvard 8 out of 10 as well?
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Post by Ignutz on Apr 2, 2022 6:14:54 GMT -5
This horse has been beaten to the point where its carcass is unrecognizable.
I move that this thread be closed. Is there a second?
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Post by hc80 on Apr 2, 2022 6:17:30 GMT -5
Second. Move the question.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 2, 2022 6:59:48 GMT -5
This horse has been beaten to the point where its carcass is unrecognizable. I move that this thread be closed. Is there a second? ...and a third, if needed. PS: If you want someone's posts to disappear just block them. Then please do not quote them. That causes the annoying poster's work to get around any blocks that may have been placed on his posts.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 2, 2022 7:15:53 GMT -5
I meant Mens lax but good catch Foley. They are one of many schools that sponsor W lax but not M lax. WLAX is a nice scholarship dumping ground to counteract football for Title IX purposes.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 2, 2022 8:26:23 GMT -5
This horse has been beaten to the point where its carcass is unrecognizable. I move that this thread be closed. Is there a second? ...and a third, if needed. PS: If you want someone's posts to disappear just block them. Then please do not quote them. That causes the annoying poster's work to get around any blocks that may have been placed on his posts. Agreed Bob. Also, I suggest some of the posters refrain from vile, "inane" personal attacks. It is not in the spirit of open discussion to sink to a Will Smith level of purely personal verbal assault. Also, it subjects the person hurling the invective to disparagement & ridicule. Apologies are in order. Disagree on the issues but avoid the purely personal attacks
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