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Post by longsuffering on Nov 22, 2023 18:51:00 GMT -5
This appears to be a modern version of "no shoes, no shirt, no service." "No tikkie no shirtie?" No longer politically correct, just added as a historical reference, not intended to start WW3 with any sensitive Super Power. 🙂
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 22, 2023 18:54:33 GMT -5
Imagine what the PETA types would have thought if they had seen the Yalies in their raccoon coats at The Game one hundred years ago. They would be so outraged they’d go full-naked in protest. 😀 (Way) off the topic but those raccoon coats I’ve seen the upper crust sporting in the old photos were kinda nutty looking IMHO. Twentieth Century Boston radio personality Dave Maynard had a full length raccoon coat he would parade around in at H-Y and HC-BC football games.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 8, 2023 6:37:05 GMT -5
Rather unimpressive displays by the presidents of three elite universities (MIT, Harvard, and Penn) in their congressional testimony regarding antisemitism on campus. Apparently, campus leftist sensitivities regarding faux micro aggressions (gender pronouns and the like) for favored groups don’t extend to more substantive issues. New York CNN — The walls appear to be caving in on the University of Pennsylvania’s president, Liz Magill, who faces scathing criticism over her performance at a House hearing earlier this week.
Prominent donor Ross Stevens threatened to claw back a $100 million donation. The university’s board of trustees held an emergency meeting Thursday. And the powerful Wharton Board of Advisors that leads the university’s prominent business school called for a leadership change at the university. www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/business/penn-emergency-meeting-liz-magillwww.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-condemns-university-presidents-contentious-congressional-h-rcna128373
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Post by alum on Dec 8, 2023 9:20:08 GMT -5
The poor performance at the hearing was preceded by a failure to have long ago adopted clear standards as to what speech is acceptable, what speech is not allowed, a process for adjudicating claimed violations, the penalties for violation of the standards, and the services to be provided to those who are attacked in speech. Making decisions on the fly is a bad way to run a large organization. The standards ought to include examples of what is and is not allowed to guard against viewpoint discrimination when a crisis develops. I understand that not every scenario can be anticipated, but a large percentage of them can.
The poor performance was also preceded by a failure to create detailed written testimony in advance of the hearing which would have explained the rules of speech on campus, discussed the application of the rules to actual incidents which have happened and suggested ways, in light of the facts of this crisis, in which the university will seek to improve its rules and responses. If the statement was too long, email it to the members and post it on the website. The advantage of taking these steps is that when committee members try to demand yes or no answers to poorly phrased questions, the witness can calmly say, "I'm sorry, but it is dishonest to expect someone to answer a question in that way. You have failed to include sufficient facts by which I can answer it. Therefore, unless you allow me to expand on my answer beyond yes or no, I can only refer you to my written statement."
The presidents did a lousy job. Should they be fired? I leave that to someone else.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Dec 8, 2023 9:40:19 GMT -5
I don't know that they should be fired, but what a good time it is for academia to do a re-set. I read a book a number of years ago called Freedom for the Thought We Hate by Anthony Lewis (who was married to Margaret Marshall, former Chief Justice of the MA Supreme Judicial Court). The question always is--where do you draw the line? If I call someone ugly that's rude, but not actionable. If I tell them I'm going to kill them that is a crime. There is a good discussion to be had here. The presidents dropped the ball.
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Post by thesip on Dec 8, 2023 9:59:53 GMT -5
Contrast PVR’s comments with the recent congressional testimony of H, MIT and Penn. Well done HC and PVR!!
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Post by HC92 on Dec 8, 2023 12:38:41 GMT -5
Only the latest example of polarization rendering people unable to just use common sense and speak clearly/truthfully on any given issue. No one wants to give an inch on anything and the result is episodes like what we saw on Capitol Hill.
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Post by mm67 on Dec 8, 2023 12:48:27 GMT -5
I agree the university presidents did a lousy job. They should have come out & unequivocally condemned the anti-semtism on campus. They were terrible. However, it is the role of universities to foster the free exchange of all ideas, namely, free speech no matter how repugnant /different the ideas. As such one would expect the university to support/protect all speech.In fact in recent years the complaint has been that universities rather than protect free speech have discriminated against conservatives who do not take progressive stands on issues. I have read that conservative/MAGA members of the teaching staff have been let go and students have been bullied into silence for not following the progressive line. And, this should never have happened. Maybe there should not be a line on speech itself. Rather than what one says, the line should be on how one uses one's words. Is the speech not merely words but threats or harassment? Clearly, hate speech directed at an individual or individuals crosses the line. Mobs of demonstrators vandalizing buildings, or disrupting the campus, blocking others crosses a line. Students chanting in support of Hamas' extremist brutal murders of Israeli Jews creates a climate of fear on campus. These threats along with chanting "From River to Sea" which would as of necessity result in the genocide of Israeli Jews , create a climate of terror on campus. No doubt under the circumstances Jewish students would be frightened, possibly not wearing skull caps or dis[playing the Menorah in this type of campus climate. These demonstrators in fact went beyond speech as their speech consisted of threats/harassment which are clearly outside the free exchange of idea integral to academia. Their actions cannot be tolerated. Currently, we are living in a super charged world. This morning at my weekly diner breakfast a dear friend told me he & his wife are not displaying their Menorah in their window due to their fear of violence, maybe a rock hurled through their window or worse. Historical family memory? They live in suburban Westchester County. Later, we hugged as usual as a show of close friendship and mutual support during these difficult days.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 8, 2023 13:07:59 GMT -5
One would think the birthplace and practicing laboratories of "safe spaces" and "microaggression theory", elite academia, would not struggle so much in regards to condemning blatant antisemitism - especially with the presence of Jewish students on campus. But one has to be familiar with Marxist theory and recognize its hold on the academic left to understand why this peculiar and particular difficulty exists. (It is not a free speech issue as similar messages aimed at 'oppressed' people would be roundly and quickly condemned. )
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Post by mm67 on Dec 8, 2023 13:46:47 GMT -5
One would think the birthplace and practicing laboratories of "safe spaces" and "microaggression theory", elite academia, would not struggle so much in regards to condemning blatant antisemitism - especially with the presence of Jewish students on campus. But one has to be familiar with Marxist theory and recognize its hold on the academic left to understand why this peculiar and particular difficulty exists. (It is not a free speech issue as similar messages aimed at 'oppressed' people would be roundly and quickly condemned. ) Israelis characterized as colonizers/oppressor by some on the left is quite often mentioned in right wing press criticisms. It's a long standing issue. In fact it was a class at HC in 1966 taught by Dr. Jacob Hen Tov that I first heard of Israelis being viewed as European colonizers by Arabs. Although I disagree some identify Israelis as the oppressor as is their right. People can believe & say whatever as long as it does not involve conduct, namely threats/harassment of others. The issue on campus goes beyond ideology and it is more about practices which threaten/harass others. PS Dr. HenTov was an Israeli freedom fighter who brought this Israeli colonizer thinking to spur class discussion. No threats, no harassment by anyone.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 9, 2023 21:31:02 GMT -5
Turns out the academic left and their ‘intersectionals’ look downright antisemitic to normal people when they call for the elimination of Israel. And there are consequences in a number of directions. Here’s one: UPenn president Liz Magill and Board Chair Scott Bok resign after disastrous hearing on antisemitism www.cnn.com/2023/12/09/business/upenn-board-of-trustees-meeting-liz-magill/index.htmlThe questions weren’t tricky at that Congressional hearing. It was the answers that were disgraceful.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 10, 2023 20:10:09 GMT -5
Issuing a gag order to student organizations seems to be as complicated as issuing them to high profile defendants. It shouldn't be. The first amendment is not absolute and must yield to public safety such as not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
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Post by Tom on Dec 11, 2023 10:26:16 GMT -5
Part of the 1st amendment is the government can't stop you from saying stuff, even if that stuff makes most people sick.
That doesn't mean that a college can't restrict customers(students) or employees from issuing threats. I can say that I hate all Yankee fans. I shouldn't say I'm going to punch someone in the nose for wearing a Yankee hat on Main St. Lots of Crusaders come from New York. While I'm not going to jail for my statements, the dean could toss me off this board for threatening violence.
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Post by alum on Dec 11, 2023 11:03:58 GMT -5
Here is the Penn Code of Conduct. I am pretty sure that one student cannot threaten to kill or physically harm another, but other than that, I think that just about anything goes. It looks like it has been the policy since 1994. It allows, from what I can see, advocacy for the destruction of the state of Israel and speech condeming gay people. I think that they can do better than this. catalog.upenn.edu/pennbook/code-of-student-conduct/Code of Student Conduct I. Preamble When Benjamin Franklin founded the Pennsylvania Academy, he defined its mission as “education for citizenship.” In pursuit of this mission, the University of Pennsylvania is committed to achieving academic excellence, to creating an environment for inquiry and learning, and to cultivating responsible citizenship in the larger society.
The University of Pennsylvania is a community in which intellectual growth, learning from others, mutual tolerance, and respect for freedom of thought and expression are principles of paramount importance. In an environment that promotes the free interchange of ideas, cultural and intellectual diversity, and a wealth of social opportunities, Penn students take advantage of the academic and non-academic opportunities available to them, deepening their intellectual insights through formal instruction, and expanding their educational experience beyond their academic programs. Members of the Penn community participate actively in the greater Philadelphia, state, national, and international communities in which they reside. “Citizens” of the University community include students, faculty, staff and those otherwise affiliated with the University.
Accepting membership into the University of Pennsylvania community as a student entails an obligation to promote its welfare by assuming the rights and responsibilities listed below. Each individual member of this community is responsible for his or her own actions and is expected to respect the rights of others.
II. Rights of Student Citizenship Membership in the University of Pennsylvania community affords every student certain rights that are essential to the University’s educational mission and its character as a community:
The right to have access to and participate in the academic and non-academic opportunities afforded by the University, subject to applicable standards or requirements. The right to freedom of thought and expression. The right to be free from discrimination on the basis of race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, disability, or status as a disabled or Vietnam Era veteran. The right to fair University judicial process in the determination of accountability for conduct. III. Responsibilities of Student Citizenship Students are expected to exhibit responsible behavior regardless of time or place. Failure to do so may result in disciplinary action by the University. Responsible behavior is a standard of conduct which reflects higher expectations than may be prevalent outside the University community. Responsible behavior includes but is not limited to the following obligations:
To comply with all provisions of the University’s Code of Academic Integrity and academic integrity codes adopted by the faculties of individual schools. To respect the health and safety of others. This precludes acts or threats of physical violence against another person (including sexual violence) and disorderly conduct. This also precludes the possession of dangerous articles (such as firearms, explosive materials, etc.) on University property or at University events without University authorization. To respect the right of fellow students to participate in University organizations and in relationships with other students without fear, threat, or act of hazing. To refrain from conduct towards other students that infringes upon the Rights of Student Citizenship. The University condemns hate speech, epithets, and racial, ethnic, sexual and religious slurs. However, the content of student speech or expression is not by itself a basis for disciplinary action. Student speech may be subject to discipline when it violates applicable laws or University regulations or policies. To refrain from stealing, damaging, defacing, or misusing the property or facilities of the University or of others. This also precludes the disruption of University computing services or interference with the rights of others to use computer resources. To be honest and truthful in dealings with the University, about one’s own identity (e.g., name or Social Security number), and in the use of University and other identification. To cooperate fully and honestly in the Student Judicial System of the University, including the obligation to comply with all judicial sanctions. To comply with all contracts made with the University, such as Residential Living Occupancy Agreements and Dining Services contracts. To comply with policies and regulations of the University and its departments (e.g., the University’s Guidelines on Open Expression, Anti-Hazing Regulations, Drug and Alcohol Policies, Sexual Harassment Policy, etc.). To comply with federal, state and local laws.
Source: Almanac, September 27, 1994, Volume 41, No. 5)
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Post by hcpride on Dec 11, 2023 11:32:40 GMT -5
Part of the 1st amendment is the government can't stop you from saying stuff, even if that stuff makes most people sick. That doesn't mean that a college can't restrict customers(students) or employees from issuing threats. I can say that I hate all Yankee fans. I shouldn't say I'm going to punch someone in the nose for wearing a Yankee hat on Main St. Lots of Crusaders come from New York. While I'm not going to jail for my statements, the dean could toss me off this board for threatening violence. Well, it was entertaining watching the three college presidents as sudden converts to the notion of free speech (coming from ivory towers best known for restricting wrongthink and wrongspeech on a whole host of matters from gender pronons to illegal immigration). And equally entertaining to see the use of practiced and identical phrasing from each of the three university presidents relative to context and free speech and anti-semitism. Entertaining, but not at all persuasive. In other words, rather embarrassing to the trustees. Two of them still have their jobs. Of course, the Harvard academic left (and intersectional supporters) are rallying to the support of Harvard's president (citing free speech (!), academic freedom, political shenanigans,...). The Harvard president did quickly apologize for her recent testimony (having already apologized two months ago for her weak first letter on the massacre of Jews in Israel).
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Post by Tom on Dec 11, 2023 14:31:06 GMT -5
Part of the 1st amendment is the government can't stop you from saying stuff, even if that stuff makes most people sick. That doesn't mean that a college can't restrict customers(students) or employees from issuing threats. I can say that I hate all Yankee fans. I shouldn't say I'm going to punch someone in the nose for wearing a Yankee hat on Main St. Lots of Crusaders come from New York. While I'm not going to jail for my statements, the dean could toss me off this board for threatening violence. Well, it was entertaining watching the three college presidents as sudden converts to the notion of free speech (coming from ivory towers best known for restricting wrongthink and wrongspeech on a whole host of matters from gender pronons to illegal immigration). And equally entertaining to see the use of practiced and identical phrasing from each of the three university presidents relative to context and free speech and anti-semitism. Entertaining, but not at all persuasive. In other words, rather embarrassing to the trustees. Two of them still have their jobs. Of course, the Harvard academic left (and intersectional supporters) are rallying to the support of Harvard's president (citing free speech (!), academic freedom, political shenanigans,...). The Harvard president did quickly apologize for her recent testimony (having already apologized two months ago for her weak first letter on the massacre of Jews in Israel). At the risk of getting too political, it does seem inconsistent to call "From the river to the sea. . ." free speech, but say that referring to a genetic male, who self identifies as something different, as "he" is hate speech
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Post by hcpride on Dec 11, 2023 19:40:29 GMT -5
Perhaps PVR can explain to the ex-Penn college president and the presidents of MIT and Harvard that we actually have free speech and no public anti-semitism on our campus. (Soooo, it is not a free speech issue in case anybody fell for that one. )
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 12, 2023 6:18:34 GMT -5
Israelis are on the wrong side of the oppressor / oppressed continuum and they don’t score many diversity points. In the higher academia elite circles, this is a losing proposition every time.
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Post by alum on Dec 12, 2023 17:45:16 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 13, 2023 8:21:15 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Dec 13, 2023 8:44:12 GMT -5
I encourage people to read the article SOV cites. There is some evidence of sloppiness in citation in Gay's work, some of actions which Harvard currently defines as improper but which others may not so define, and some which would seem problematic by any standard. It seems to me that we are hearing more and more about these types of problems which, I suppose, is a function of the ease by which one can search for plagarism today. Should someone lose his or her job for failing to properly credit other's work twenty five years ago? Twenty? Ten? Does it matter whether it was intentional or negligent? Should different defintions of plagarism apply to academic work, magazine articles, newspaper articles, letters to the editor? How about when a politician gives a speech. Can she advocate for a policy change based upon a study she read without crediting the author? For a college undergraduate, do you have to cite sources in a five page reaction to an article read for class which doesn't include footnotes, for a fifty page honors thesis, when answering an essay question in a timed blue book exam? Finally, and most importantly, can a standup comedian steal a joke? Should the original author of the joke have the right to sue for damages for plagarism or, perhaps, a copyright violation if it was in a YouTube video? What about on Crossports? Do we have to cite every crazy take we hear on talk radio when we repeat it here?
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2023 8:49:03 GMT -5
My favorite plagiarism connection was when I used our school's plagiarism identification software on some older documents/articles of mine to find that I had been guilty since I cited thoughts and comments of "my name" without citing myself as their author.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2023 9:10:03 GMT -5
There was once a stand-up years ago that the running joke was that he never had an original joke and just stole from everyone else. Can't recall if it was Henny Youngman (that's my recollection) but maybe Milton Berle? Who else is old enough but has a better memory than I do to correct the record?
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2023 12:10:15 GMT -5
"He just stole from me, I steal from everybody" - Woody Guthrie
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2023 12:23:37 GMT -5
I like the old saying “when you steal from me you have stolen twice”
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