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Post by WorcesterGray on Jul 5, 2019 7:02:29 GMT -5
Is the leverage with the players? what if they show up when classes resume having not participated in summer work outs? “If a young person comes in and says 'I’m going to transfer,' the school now is disadvantaged. By definition, they’ve lost a roster spot,” Harlan said. “The moment that you notify the compliance department at your school that you’re at and your name is entered into the NCAA transfer database, the school retains the scholarship. The young person gets the scholarship through that term or semester when the request is made. www.deseretnews.com/article/900078262/utah-college-coaches-ads-weigh-in-on-how-the-ncaa-transfer-portal-is-impacAnd continuing from there . . .
“That’s the give-back, so the school can move on and the young person can move on,” Harlan said. “So that’s the seesaw that you need to always balance.” (my emphasis)
The players initiated this - why they did so is irrelevant. Time for everybody to move on.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 5, 2019 7:02:42 GMT -5
There is no point in the school doing anything to tell Caleb and Jacob they can’t come back unless and until Nelson has identified others who want to come who could use those scholarships now. I don't understand. To "identify others who want to come" would literally require them to verbally commit, would it not? Highly unlikely that will happen over the summer. I don't think it's reasonable to ask Nelson to recruit with handcuffs, if the school does indeed have the ability to resolve the situation by re-claiming the scholarships now.
And, by the way, there are over fifty 2020 kids the previous regime expressed interest in.
Don’t understand. The school can do whatever it wants with the Green and Grandison scholarships if they are in the portal. I assume Nelson is reaching into his fairly extensive network to see if there are any guys who might be good candidates for those scholarships (either incoming freshmen or uncommitted transfers like Brandon Wade). If there are, we would contact those guys. If they want to come, we would offer them a scholarship and simultaneously tell Green and/or Grandison we are moving on. The only point I was making is that we can let Green and Grandison explore their options for now without yet pulling their scholarships for the Fall.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 5, 2019 7:04:07 GMT -5
Bison has cited a few players at Bucknell who returned after entering the portal. Neither was very good. I suspect Green and Grandison will actually have some options and consider it highly likely they are gone.
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Post by hchoops on Jul 5, 2019 7:07:20 GMT -5
These options, except if UNH’s source about Fairfield is accurate, have been lessened by the lateness of their decisions.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jul 5, 2019 7:07:44 GMT -5
Bison has cited a few players at Bucknell who returned after entering the portal. Those players considered leaving before the new coach was named. These players entered the portal after they knew who the new coach would be.
It's unfair to Nelson to hamstring his recruiting while CG and JG mull things over. If the school can re-claim their scholarships now, it should
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Post by trimster on Jul 5, 2019 7:08:49 GMT -5
The rules are pretty clear that the school can cancel the scholarship at the end of the semester in which a student enters the portal. Because we are not in a semester at the moment, I think the school holds the cards about whether the student who enters the portal will be welcomed back on the first day of classes. There is no point in the school doing anything to tell Caleb and Jacob they can’t come back unless and until Nelson has identified others who want to come who could use those scholarships now. Assuming CG and JG do transfer, one plus to this is it will remedy the absurd situation of having 6 players in one class on scholarship. If they are in the portal, Coach Nelson now has 3 scholarships to work with for the frosh entering in the fall of 2020 rather than the also absurd situation of a class with one player in it. Unless Coach Nelson brings in a player or two from the portal himself, CG and JG would likely still have a scholarship available to them should they choose to remain at HC. I say that because I think it's unlikely Coach Nelson will get 3 frosh for the fall of 2020 to commit in the next 6 weeks. I am trying to put a positive spin on this and am really hoping Coach Carmody left us with a naive parting gift in the form of the 4 incoming frosh.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 5, 2019 7:26:23 GMT -5
I refreshed my computer this morning, all the time saying "please, Lord, don't let me see a new subject on Crossports titled "Austin Butler"
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Post by efg72 on Jul 5, 2019 7:28:02 GMT -5
If true, the decisions by Grandison and Green are disappointing. We certainly aren’t privy to their decision making process, but if that is what they need for their individual growth and development I wish them good fortune and success in their future.
During his meeting with the team I hope Nelson announces Butler and Copeland as Captains, tells them what is expected and the future is about building a championship program
At this point I am not sure what the process is for the player, team or school, and I am not sure if this is allowed but
For those in the portal, hopefully it remains limited to the two, I would give them until next Wednesday, July 10 to recommit to the program and if they are unwilling, inform them their previous contributions are greatly appreciated but their scholarships are not renewed and wish them well.
We will see if this unfortunate situation becomes an opportunity for Nelson to create his environment and lead the program forward.
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Post by hc6774 on Jul 5, 2019 8:31:06 GMT -5
What if a portal transfer withdraws from the portal... or reneges on a 'commit' to transfer to a specific school?
What, if any, conference/PL rules apply? e.g. a PL schollie is a 4 yr, not a 1 yr NCAA commitment.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 8:33:29 GMT -5
Can bison137 or somebody in the know please explain how the portal process works and its impact on the status of affected scholarships? Really would like to understand what kind of situation the program is in, and how it gets resolved. I'm not positive, but it is my understanding that Holy Cross is allowed to initiate a non-renewal process with regard to their Fall scholarships (which under NCAA rules had to have been renewed - or cancelled - prior to July 1st). Any non-renewal needs to follow a process which is in writing and which is given to student-athletes at the start of each year. Part of that process would be to give the student-athlete an opportunity for a hearing. Note that if they are enrolled in HC's summer session, then that scholarship money cannot be rescinded. It is the same if a player opts to enter the portal in March, i.e. his scholarship for that semester cannot be cancelled.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 8:35:02 GMT -5
Bison has cited a few players at Bucknell who returned after entering the portal. Almost. When Azzinaro and MacLeay announced a few years ago that they were planning to transfer, there was no portal. But they followed the existing procedure and got permission from Bucknell to transfer and to talk with any schools they wanted. Then after Paulsen left for GMU, both decided to stay. There have been published stories of players entering the portal and opting to stay in the last 14 months however.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 5, 2019 8:35:31 GMT -5
None of us has any real idea why Green and Grandison entered the portal or why they chose the timing they did. There are at least murmurings that both were considering a transfer before Carmody left. Both reportedly entered the portal right around the time Nelson was announced. We have no idea if they already had a destination set before they entered the portal. If they are truly just keeping their options open, Nelson should be able to re-recruit them. If they’re already gone, I’m sure he’s working hard to develop the best possible plan to replace them. Very tough to do in July if you need help to be on campus when classes start in September. It will be what it’s going to be. If there is a chance to keep them, I’m sure Nelson is working hard to do that. There may not be any chance of that. If that’s the case, wish them well and move on with the guys who want to be here.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jul 5, 2019 8:38:14 GMT -5
I refreshed my computer this morning, all the time saying "please, Lord, don't let me see a new subject on Crossports titled "Austin Butler" He's the most likely kid to stay, I think. This situation also opens up some immediate opportunity for Pridgen, who strikes me as being a lot like Butler when it comes to physicality and toughness. I believe those are characteristics that will be more important going forward than they have been.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 8:40:00 GMT -5
What if a portal transfer withdraws from the portal... or reneges on a 'commit' to transfer to a specific school? What, if any, conference/PL rules apply? e.g. a PL schollie is a 4 yr, not a 1 yr NCAA commitment. Once HC has cancelled their scholarship for the fall, it would be up to HC to decide whether to let them return. The cancellation process will take at least a few days however. As for the PL, there is no policy other than NCAA policy. PL scholarship are not guaranteed for four years, unless an individual school opts to do that. However it would be extremely rare for a PL school to non-renew a scholarship other than for some sort of bad behavior. I know Bucknell has never non-renewed one based on how a student-athlete performed - and they have kept some athletes for four years who were clearly never going to play except in a blowout.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 8:41:57 GMT -5
Bison has cited a few players at Bucknell who returned after entering the portal. Those players considered leaving before the new coach was named. These players entered the portal after they knew who the new coach would be.
It's unfair to Nelson to hamstring his recruiting while CG and JG mull things over. If the school can re-claim their scholarships now, it should
Are you sure CG entered the portal after they knew who the new coach would be? His addition to the portal was announced about three days prior to the announcement of Nelson being hired. And he must have made his first request at least 24 hours - maybe more - before it first became public.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 8:43:39 GMT -5
Bison has cited a few players at Bucknell who returned after entering the portal. Neither was very good. I suspect Green and Grandison will actually have some options and consider it highly likely they are gone. Both Azzinaro and MacLeay got a few D1 offers when they decided to leave. Certainly not high-level programs but all respectable D1 programs. So they did have options.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jul 5, 2019 8:47:14 GMT -5
The name on the front of the jersey takes precedent over any coach or league. HC has been around nearly 200 years, and God willing, will be around another 200 years, with hundreds of players and (hopefully many fewer) coaches involved with the program. While the changing of the guard allows the opportunity for players to explore different opportunities, I somewhat ignorantly posit A) that there isn't a better opportunity out there, and B) I view it as an excuse to let the school down on a commitment each party made to one another.
I try to put myself in the men's shoes and think if I would do the same and find it hard to empathize.
Regarding the new coach's challenge for the players that remain, I say that they rally around each other. "Those of us in the room choose to be here, and those of us outside the room chose not to be. Screw them, it's us against the world," sort of thing... And then go out and win a whole bunch of games.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jul 5, 2019 8:49:37 GMT -5
Those players considered leaving before the new coach was named. These players entered the portal after they knew who the new coach would be.
It's unfair to Nelson to hamstring his recruiting while CG and JG mull things over. If the school can re-claim their scholarships now, it should
Are you sure CG entered the portal after they knew who the new coach would be? I am not sure, but the notice of his intent to transfer was made public on July 1st. Nelson "interviewed" at HC on July 2nd, and was officially named on July 3rd. Wouldn't surprise me if the players knew a week ago what was going to transpire.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If he wants to go, he should be free to go, whatever the motivation.
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Post by hc6774 on Jul 5, 2019 8:55:06 GMT -5
the next event is the presser on Tuesday... might that be a deadline for those involved to commit one way or the other... after that its the coach's discretion?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jul 5, 2019 8:57:53 GMT -5
The name on the front of the jersey takes precedent over any coach or league. This.
I understand that these players may have committed to a coach (or a style of play) rather than Holy Cross itself, and they may not be comfortable with a change in the direction of the program I think they should be free to leave, and to be "fair and balanced" Holy Cross should immediately re-claim their scholarships so that Nelson has free reign to offer them to kids who do want to be part of the program going forward.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 5, 2019 9:01:46 GMT -5
I know that a number of posters have gotten to know Caleb's father & mother. I happened to have met and had a long discussion with all 3 on Caleb's freshman "move-in day" and have spoken with Tom Green at many games along with NAD, Tom and others. I had never gotten the impression that his primary reason for choosing Holy Cross was specifically Bill Carmody but more for the school itself. Others may have a different take. Like others, I have gotten communications to give to the Crusader Athletic Fund from Caleb. We've seen tweets posted here about what Holy Cross has meant to Caleb. I think it is important that Caleb goes to a school where his parents can travel a reasonable distance to watch him play.
My best guess - speculation - is that when Carmody suddenly retired, Caleb wanted to cover all the bases in case the new coach didn't see his value to the team the way Carmody & staff did. He may in fact be gone but my gut says he's going to stay, especially if BN reaches out to him.
As for Jacob, he's a very long way from home. His situation may be very different than Caleb. We saw one player in the past leave due to homesickness for Omaha. I suspect Jacob is a little more sophisticated than that but if he transferred to a place closer to the left coast his family would have an easier time watching him play and his stock might have gone up after playing at Holy Cross than when he first got out of high school.
Brett Nelson will have his challenges but I am sure he knew that upfront.
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Post by hc6774 on Jul 5, 2019 9:10:20 GMT -5
Can bison137 or somebody in the know please explain how the portal process works and its impact on the status of affected scholarships? Really would like to understand what kind of situation the program is in, and how it gets resolved. I'm not positive, but it is my understanding that Holy Cross is allowed to initiate a no-renewal process with regard to their Fall scholarships (which under NCAA rules had to have been renewed - or cancelled - prior to July 1st). Any non-renewal needs to follow a process which is in writing and which is given to student-athletes at the start of each year. Part of that process would be to give the student-athlete an opportunity for a hearing.Note that if they are enrolled in HC's summer session, then that scholarship money cannot be rescinded. It is the same if a player opts to enter the portal in March, i.e. his scholarship for that semester cannot be cancelled. Might the July 1 deadline have been the precipitating event? Forms were distributed after Carmody retirement. Some did not sign and entered the portal. The roster as been updated for the head coach change; no change in roster players, yet.
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Post by CHC8485 on Jul 5, 2019 10:26:10 GMT -5
Right now, chaos and confusion reign supreme. It may be a delicate situation with Green & Grandison for Coach Nelson to handle. On the one hand some sort of deadline for them to decide would seem to be a necessity but on the other he does not want to appear to be pushing them out the door with his deadline as he may lose their former teammates who remain on the team. IMO he'll need to approach this carefully, deftly appealing to the team with both head and heart and certainly not in a "mea culpa" manner but with a positive tone to move on with no recriminations. Does he call a team meeting, talk with the players individually to discuss the transfers or move straight ahead with little/no mention of the transfers? I realize that there may be some who could not care less about any nuanced handling of the transfers and may believe that it is best to adopt a "take it or leave it" attitude and move straight ahead with a "next man up" attitude. I tend to think that he should be able to use these transfers to help build team cohesion and closeness among the guys. I am sure that the Coach is familiar with similar situations and in all likelihood is not surprised by the transfers. But, Coach Nelson's communication skills are being put to a tough test right from the beginning - sort of like a "baptism by fire." How best does he motivate to help build team unity, confidence and enthusiasm? Every challenge also provides an opportunity and these transfers may in fact help him to build his "street cred" with the team. I wish him much success. LoveHC Not picking on you in particular mm67, but the above is illustrative of what's wrong with this thread and several threads here recently. Chaos & confusion reign supreme ... on this message board. Note all of the conditional words and phrases I've highlighted above in your post. Others have done the same and "the board" runs with conjecture and opinion as fact. Virtually everything being posted here is conjecture, including that guys have put their names in the transfer portal. I realize that there is an extremely high likelihood of that being true, but just because it was reported last week, doesn't mean they haven't been in the portal for a week, a month or more. Also, what if CG or JG put their names in the portal this week but subsequently decide to stay at HC? Will their names be removed from the portal? And if they are removed, who leaks that to someone to tweet or to 247 Sports to update their database? Pretty sure changes to publicly available information will be much slower in that case. The fact that we're confused doesn't mean Marcus Blossom or Brett Nelson are wringing their hands trying to figure out what to do. I think the collective board needs to understand there is a ton of conjecture right now and so we should all take a deep breath, relax, and allow the changes in HC athletics in general and Mens BB specifically settle in a bit and allow things to play out - even if both CG & JG transfer.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 5, 2019 10:30:09 GMT -5
I'm not positive, but it is my understanding that Holy Cross is allowed to initiate a no-renewal process with regard to their Fall scholarships (which under NCAA rules had to have been renewed - or cancelled - prior to July 1st). Any non-renewal needs to follow a process which is in writing and which is given to student-athletes at the start of each year. Part of that process would be to give the student-athlete an opportunity for a hearing.Note that if they are enrolled in HC's summer session, then that scholarship money cannot be rescinded. It is the same if a player opts to enter the portal in March, i.e. his scholarship for that semester cannot be cancelled. Might the July 1 deadline have been the precipitating event? Forms were distributed after Carmody retirement. Some did not sign and entered the portal. The roster as been updated for the head coach change; no change in roster players, yet. I don't think the July 1st date would have precipitated any decisions. Having it come and go simply meant that HC could no longer yank their scholarship if they planned to stay - but there was absolutely no danger of that happening anyway. Opting to enter the portal on June 29th, as opposed to July 3rd, really wouldn't be affected by the July 1st deadline for HC to non-renew their scholarship if they were planning to return.
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Post by trimster on Jul 5, 2019 11:15:16 GMT -5
Right now, chaos and confusion reign supreme. It may be a delicate situation with Green & Grandison for Coach Nelson to handle. On the one hand some sort of deadline for them to decide would seem to be a necessity but on the other he does not want to appear to be pushing them out the door with his deadline as he may lose their former teammates who remain on the team. IMO he'll need to approach this carefully, deftly appealing to the team with both head and heart and certainly not in a "mea culpa" manner but with a positive tone to move on with no recriminations. Does he call a team meeting, talk with the players individually to discuss the transfers or move straight ahead with little/no mention of the transfers? I realize that there may be some who could not care less about any nuanced handling of the transfers and may believe that it is best to adopt a "take it or leave it" attitude and move straight ahead with a "next man up" attitude. I tend to think that he should be able to use these transfers to help build team cohesion and closeness among the guys. I am sure that the Coach is familiar with similar situations and in all likelihood is not surprised by the transfers. But, Coach Nelson's communication skills are being put to a tough test right from the beginning - sort of like a "baptism by fire." How best does he motivate to help build team unity, confidence and enthusiasm? Every challenge also provides an opportunity and these transfers may in fact help him to build his "street cred" with the team. I wish him much success. LoveHC Not picking on you in particular mm67, but the above is illustrative of what's wrong with this thread and several threads here recently. Chaos & confusion reign supreme ... on this message board. Note all of the conditional words and phrases I've highlighted above in your post. Others have done the same and "the board" runs with conjecture and opinion as fact. Virtually everything being posted here is conjecture, including that guys have put their names in the transfer portal. I realize that there is an extremely high likelihood of that being true, but just because it was reported last week, doesn't mean they haven't been in the portal for a week, a month or more. Also, what if CG or JG put their names in the portal this week but subsequently decide to stay at HC? Will their names be removed from the portal? And if they are removed, who leaks that to someone to tweet or to 247 Sports to update their database? Pretty sure changes to publicly available information will be much slower in that case. The fact that we're confused doesn't mean Marcus Blossom or Brett Nelson are wringing their hands trying to figure out what to do. I think the collective board needs to understand there is a ton of conjecture right now and so we should all take a deep breath, relax, and allow the changes in HC athletics in general and Mens BB specifically settle in a bit and allow things to play out - even if both CG & JG transfer. Excellent point. Conjecture is what makes message boards and sports talk shows go round. Foolish to put much faith in either although I do put more faith in what is posted here than on talk radio. That is not to say it's a lot.
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