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Post by lehighowl on Sept 23, 2019 20:37:37 GMT -5
The FBS-FCS debate always intrigues me so I figure I'd chime in.
First, I was at the 'Cuse-Clemson game so I got to see the Orange first hand against the best of the best. Devito is not on Dungey's level as a QB. He lacks the toughness and ability to make something out of nothing like Eric was able to do. As a result the offense isn't as a dangerous as it was last year. Their WR's are still good and the running backs are solid but the QB play has dropped significantly. I actually thought the Orange defense played really well. The front 7 was able to get pressure on Lawrence and the secondary had a couple of nice interceptions. The offense simply could not get anything going when the game was still close in the 3rd quarter. Holy Cross is going to have a very difficult time moving the ball imo. I have a feeling Babers is going to want to make a statement after an up and down start to the season. Chesney better have his team ready to roll for 60 minutes.
My belief is if you're going play FBS games then step up and compete. Given the PL's restrictions relative to other FCS conferences it's an even more of an uphill climb. As a result the coaches better have one helluva game plan and be able to instill some over the top belief to be competitive when playing average to above average FBS teams. The PL wins over FBS schools during the playoff era (1997 to present) have been when a solid to really good PL team beat an awful FBS team ('02 Amy, '02 Buffalo, '03 Buffalo, '13 Temple, '15 Army). Personally, I'm not impressed by teams going out and getting their butts kicked. Anyone can schedule tough and play the role of a homecoming cupcake. The fact the players aren't embarrassed by losing by a lopsided score is bizarre to me. If they want to challenge themselves and believe they should be on that stage then man up and walk on at Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern etc. These are PL/FCS players for reason. To be blunt, they're for the most part inferior D1 talent. They know the only way they're stepping foot on the Carrier Dome turf is a paid for hire tackling dummy for the 'Cuse to abuse. Colgate stud LB TJ Holl wanted to test himself at the FBS level so he went to Louisville as grad transfer. Now he's riding the pine as a scrub for a middling ACC program.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 23, 2019 20:48:30 GMT -5
This is 100% correct. Every single player on the team would rather play and lose against Cuse than beat a FCS opponent (PL Ring and Playoffs excepted). I don't have any idea whether any of the pitifully small handful of regulars on this board have played football at HC (or any other college for that matter) or know anyone on the present Crusader squad, but I've got to wonder how many of today's actual players would really trade an FBS stomping...if it happens this Saturday (and I sincerely hope it doesn't)...for the "vivid memories" of playing in the Carrier Dome. Has anyone polled the team about how players felt about the shellacking at BC last year? I expect not. I saw HC many times against Army at Michie "back in the day" and those games were generally competitive and we won our fair share. But, sadly, we're not what we were back then and FBS teams like Army and Navy...not to mention the "Cuse"...are better...much better...than they were then. We have no business playing legitimate FBS schools...impostors like UConn excluded...money be damned. That being said, if today's players really like getting their butts kicked by FBS opponents, have at it! You are out of touch.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 23, 2019 21:11:33 GMT -5
I find some of the posts on this thread with their bloviating, exaggerated, unsupported generalizations irrelevant and useless except to provide comic relief. Let's face it, what passes for the opinions of students/players is in reality the opinions of some alums. Some for whatever unfathomable reason, want HC to upgrade to a more difficult FBS/CAA schedule. I'm sure that the thought of HC playing against 3-4 FBS/ CAA schools makes some feel good about...? Maybe, we are still kids at heart. We're just a bunch of alums some old, some young whose opinions matter little and will not be long remembered. Have fun. LoveHC This is hyperbolic...no one here is advocating for HC to be a "football factory"....some, like myself, would like to see HC return to a level where we are on equal footing with the best of the Ivies, the CAAs etc....this is doable within the confines of the PL perhaps... though the league may have to tweek some of its rules/regulations.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 21:38:26 GMT -5
The FBS-FCS debate always intrigues me so I figure I'd chime in. First, I was at the 'Cuse-Clemson game so I got to see the Orange first hand against the best of the best. Devito is not on Dungey's level as a QB. He lacks the toughness and ability to make something out of nothing like Eric was able to do. As a result the offense isn't as a dangerous as it was last year. Their WR's are still good and the running backs are solid but the QB play has dropped significantly. I actually thought the Orange defense played really well. The front 7 was able to get pressure on Lawrence and the secondary had a couple of nice interceptions. The offense simply could not get anything going when the game was still close in the 3rd quarter. Holy Cross is going to have a very difficult time moving the ball imo. I have a feeling Babers is going to want to make a statement after an up and down start to the season. Chesney better have his team ready to roll for 60 minutes. My belief is if you're going play FBS games then step up and compete. Given the PL's restrictions relative to other FCS conferences it's an even more of an uphill climb. As a result the coaches better have one helluva game plan and be able to instill some over the top belief to be competitive when playing average to above average FBS teams. The PL wins over FBS schools during the playoff era (1997 to present) have been when a solid to really good PL team beat an awful FBS team ('02 Amy, '02 Buffalo, '03 Buffalo, '13 Temple, '15 Army). Personally, I'm not impressed by teams going out and getting their butts kicked. Anyone can schedule tough and play the role of a homecoming cupcake. The fact the players aren't embarrassed by losing by a lopsided score is bizarre to me. If they want to challenge themselves and believe they should be on that stage then man up and walk on at Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern etc. These are PL/FCS players for reason. To be blunt, they're for the most part inferior D1 talent. They know the only way they're stepping foot on the Carrier Dome turf is a paid for hire tackling dummy for the 'Cuse to abuse. Colgate stud LB TJ Holl wanted to test himself at the FBS level so he went to Louisville as grad transfer. Now he's riding the pine as a scrub for a middling ACC program. I was looking at L'ville's game logs and it looks as if TJ Holl has played in all 4 games. Granted, he is most likely a special team player (2 tackles), but what more could you ask? Great move on his part. He was EXTREMELY lucky to receive a medical redshirt at the 4 game mark his Junior Year since if he played 5, his career would be over. Had I had the insight at 34 at age 17, I would have just walked on at an FBS School. I was very thankful for my experience at HC, but would have been just as happy as a special teams player at Northwestern or lower FBS School with decent academics.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 23, 2019 21:50:17 GMT -5
Different world today perhaps, but I personally know guys who chose HC ovah the Iviies because they knew they would play against Army and BC every year.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 23, 2019 22:15:51 GMT -5
Red-shirting (which is already done medically at HC) to a more doable extent, the full 63 schollies, relaxing the limit on players etc....none of these will turn HC into the Alabama of the North.
HC football on the level of Villanova, William&Mary, Yale etc year in, year out is hardly destroying our wonderful college. Love HC
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Post by lehighowl on Sept 23, 2019 22:28:11 GMT -5
The FBS-FCS debate always intrigues me so I figure I'd chime in. First, I was at the 'Cuse-Clemson game so I got to see the Orange first hand against the best of the best. Devito is not on Dungey's level as a QB. He lacks the toughness and ability to make something out of nothing like Eric was able to do. As a result the offense isn't as a dangerous as it was last year. Their WR's are still good and the running backs are solid but the QB play has dropped significantly. I actually thought the Orange defense played really well. The front 7 was able to get pressure on Lawrence and the secondary had a couple of nice interceptions. The offense simply could not get anything going when the game was still close in the 3rd quarter. Holy Cross is going to have a very difficult time moving the ball imo. I have a feeling Babers is going to want to make a statement after an up and down start to the season. Chesney better have his team ready to roll for 60 minutes. My belief is if you're going play FBS games then step up and compete. Given the PL's restrictions relative to other FCS conferences it's an even more of an uphill climb. As a result the coaches better have one helluva game plan and be able to instill some over the top belief to be competitive when playing average to above average FBS teams. The PL wins over FBS schools during the playoff era (1997 to present) have been when a solid to really good PL team beat an awful FBS team ('02 Amy, '02 Buffalo, '03 Buffalo, '13 Temple, '15 Army). Personally, I'm not impressed by teams going out and getting their butts kicked. Anyone can schedule tough and play the role of a homecoming cupcake. The fact the players aren't embarrassed by losing by a lopsided score is bizarre to me. If they want to challenge themselves and believe they should be on that stage then man up and walk on at Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern etc. These are PL/FCS players for reason. To be blunt, they're for the most part inferior D1 talent. They know the only way they're stepping foot on the Carrier Dome turf is a paid for hire tackling dummy for the 'Cuse to abuse. Colgate stud LB TJ Holl wanted to test himself at the FBS level so he went to Louisville as grad transfer. Now he's riding the pine as a scrub for a middling ACC program. I was looking at L'ville's game logs and it looks as if TJ Holl has played in all 4 games. Granted, he is most likely a special team player (2 tackles), but what more could you ask? Great move on his part. He was EXTREMELY lucky to receive a medical redshirt at the 4 game mark his Junior Year since if he played 5, his career would be over. Had I had the insight at 34 at age 17, I would have just walked on at an FBS School. I was very thankful for my experience at HC, but would have been just as happy as a special teams player at Northwestern or lower FBS School with decent academics. I personally thought Holl would have gotten more out of his 5th year both athletically and academically. He was exceptional last season for Colgate. No offense to Louisville but they don't quite measure up in either regard. He seemed like the type of kid who would thrive for David Shaw or Pat Fitzgerald.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 23, 2019 22:31:41 GMT -5
I wonder if Coach Chesney or his assistants ever ask the players about the appeal of playing Syracuse, Navy, bc, et al??? I hope they do discuss this controversial topic so they could have the same awareness of the pluses and minuses that we posters have...…...
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Post by hc87 on Sept 23, 2019 22:40:31 GMT -5
It is a pretty big recruiting tool in our arsenal, along with the Luth....believe me. I know some other PL schools can make the same claim...but if we can continue to schedule the BCs, Syracuse's etc it can make a difference recruiting -wise imo. Kids want to play against that level even if it's a Sisyphean ordeal.
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Post by lehighowl on Sept 23, 2019 22:43:46 GMT -5
Red-shirting (which is already done medically at HC) to a more doable extent, the full 63 schollies, relaxing the limit on players etc....none of these will turn HC into the Alabama of the North. HC football on the level of Villanova, William&Mary, Yale etc year in, year out is hardly destroying our wonderful college. Love HC The question is will the league have the balls to make the needed changes? If they don't than the only solution imo is to disband football as a league sport and let the schools decide their own fate. The current model is broken beyond repair. I've followed this league for basically 3 decades and this is the worst I've seen it. Those mid 90's years (post HC schollies/pre-Colgate and Lehigh runs) were awful and irrelevant (no playoffs) but this is next level type bleep. The league could also use some better coaches. I personally think Chesney and Sgarlata are the two best in the league. Hunt is clearly the most accomplished but Colgate has been extremely up and down during his tenure. They've also grossly underachieved twice, '16 and '19. Gilmore's resume speaks for himself. He's simply not a good enough coach to overcome the hurdles and succeed at a high level at Lehigh. Garrett is dumpster fire and has no business being a D1 coach. Conlin has some legit talent but things really don't seem to be getting better in year 2. Cecchini is likely in a dead end position at Bucknell. Any success will be modest and likely won't amount to much. Susan had a couple of years like that. You need coaches who can maximize every little bit of potential given the hand their dealt. Joe Moorhead took over a 1-10 team proceeded to have 4 straight winning seasons, 3 straight 9+ win seasons, 3 straight playoff births/ Top 25 finishes, 2 FBS wins and he even beat Villanova once. I'm not sure there's a coach in the league I'd wager $1 to accomplish even one of those things.....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 22:51:47 GMT -5
Red-shirting (which is already done medically at HC) to a more doable extent, the full 63 schollies, relaxing the limit on players etc....none of these will turn HC into the Alabama of the North. HC football on the level of Villanova, William&Mary, Yale etc year in, year out is hardly destroying our wonderful college. Love HC The question is will the league have the balls to make the needed changes? If they don't than the only solution imo is to disband football as a league sport and let the schools decide their own fate. The current model is broken beyond repair. I've followed this league for basically 3 decades and this is the worst I've seen it. Those mid 90's years (post HC schollies/pre-Colgate and Lehigh runs) were awful and irrelevant (no playoffs) but this is next level type bleep. The league could also use some better coaches. I personally think Chesney and Sgarlata are the two best in the league. Hunt is clearly the most accomplished but Colgate has been extremely up and down during his tenure. They've also grossly underachieved twice, '16 and '19. Gilmore's resume speaks for himself. He's simply not a good enough coach to overcome the hurdles and succeed at a high level at Lehigh. Garrett is dumpster fire and has no business being a D1 coach. Conlin has some legit talent but things really don't seem to be getting better in year 2. Cecchini is likely in a dead end position at Bucknell. Any success will be modest and likely won't amount to much. Susan had a couple of years like that. You need coaches who can maximize every little bit of potential given the hand their dealt. Joe Moorhead took over a 1-10 team proceeded to have 4 straight winning seasons, 3 straight 9+ win seasons, 3 straight playoff births/ Top 25 finishes, 2 FBS wins and he even beat Villanova once. I'm not sure there's a coach in the league I'd wager $1 to accomplish even one of those things..... Well said.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Sept 23, 2019 22:55:29 GMT -5
Losing to OOC 1A schools doesn't matter. Losing to conference schools does. Same applies to every sport at every school of HC's ilk. For those worried about injuries, go watch a tennis match instead.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 23, 2019 22:59:58 GMT -5
Hey....no picking on tennis....some of the best athletes in the world, myself excluded
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Syracuse
Sept 24, 2019 2:33:17 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by hcpride on Sept 24, 2019 2:33:17 GMT -5
Come on, some here seem to think we are sending out ill-nourished, undah-sized orphans from Boys Town this Saturday. Our guys are (mostly) D1 scholarship athletes...some of whom were recruited by FBS schools. We will more than likely lose, maybe even badly but it will be the thrill of a lifetime for many of them, a great weekend for many alums and many other ancillary factors (school branding, $$$, recruiting etc) Or we could play Marist. Marist = Straw Man I did write a suggestion that a team such as Villanova, Richmond, Maine or URI (all CAA) would be more appropriate (albeit quite challenging) than Syracuse for PL HC as a game 4 in a season in which we have already played FBS Navy.
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Post by alum on Sept 24, 2019 6:37:17 GMT -5
I don't have a problem playing one BCS game per year. The kids want a chance to play a big dog. The school gets some cash which I would invest in paying the assistants a little better. On the other hand, I don't need our guys to play two of these per year. (I don't like twelve game schedules either, but that's another discussion.)
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Post by gks on Sept 24, 2019 6:46:15 GMT -5
I find some of the posts on this thread with their bloviating, exaggerated, unsupported generalizations irrelevant and useless except to provide comic relief. Let's face it, what passes for the opinions of students/players is in reality the opinions of some alums. Some for whatever unfathomable reason, want HC to upgrade to a more difficult FBS/CAA schedule. I'm sure that the thought of HC playing against 3-4 FBS/ CAA schools makes some feel good about...? Maybe, we are still kids at heart. We're just a bunch of alums some old, some young whose opinions matter little and will not be long remembered. Have fun. LoveHC I have not seen one person type this on this message board. This year with two FBS is an anomaly because of the 12 game schedule.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 24, 2019 6:51:54 GMT -5
Basing it on what players say publicly during the recruiting process— I have drawn certain conclusions over the years, but respectfully I leave it to you and others to draw your own conclusions Question: Are your conclusions about student/player opinions the same as your own privately held opinions or do your opinions differ from those of the students you have cited?? I suspect that most(myself included) have preconceived notions hidden under our statements about the opinions of others, students and the like. Most are not part of the recruiting process as I assume you are and have not directly interviewed individual students as I assume you have. As we both LoveHC My opinions/conclusions are based on what I have been told over the years by players I coached or previously got to know through my kids or relationships with our school, and students I spoke with, including book prize winners. Perhaps mine is influenced by the DC region, where HC is not well known, or by the fact that kids today want to play and go to a good school. For example the last AAU team I coached in 2007 had 8 kids play in college ranging from Columbia and Georgetown to a bunch of D3 schools. These were all good students with GPAs above 3.4 and SATs above 1220. Going to a good school was important to each young man, but they wanted an opportunity to play right away and play against talented opponents. They knew there were differences in the “good” schools, but in their minds they knew they were involved with a number of good academic institutions so unless it impacted a future life opportunity they were all in the same bucket. The football players from this area, including those in the early 80s, saw no difference between HC/BC/Nova and back then there were clear differences in the rankings. Look we all love the school and what it gave to us as students and what it does for others. Imh and perhaps biased opinion there are plenty of students that will know a ton about HC and what it offers, but those who have no family history with the school just know it as a good school with competitive admissions.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 24, 2019 6:53:40 GMT -5
I find some of the posts on this thread with their bloviating, exaggerated, unsupported generalizations irrelevant and useless except to provide comic relief. Let's face it, what passes for the opinions of students/players is in reality the opinions of some alums. Some for whatever unfathomable reason, want HC to upgrade to a more difficult FBS/CAA schedule. I'm sure that the thought of HC playing against 3-4 FBS/ CAA schools makes some feel good about...? Maybe, we are still kids at heart. We're just a bunch of alums some old, some young whose opinions matter little and will not be long remembered. Have fun. LoveHC I have not seen one person type this on this message board. This year with two FBS is an anomaly because of the 12 game schedule. Exactly. The two FBS games in a season may never happen again. Combination of 12-game schedule and a rare opprtunity to go to the Dome presented itself to NP. I've been a follower of William & Mary football since I was six years old. They play an FBS every year. This year is the first time they played two (Virginia, East Carolina) for same reason. The only FCS schools that typically play two money games a year are those that desperately need the cash (see SWAC and MEAC schools) or those out west with limited scheduling options due to geography.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2019 7:19:47 GMT -5
The players are kids who are becoming men. I have come to know many of them. They are, each of them, albeit to varied degrees, warriors. They will play anyone, anytime, any place. That is the warrior mentality. They go into BCS games amped up and wanting to pull an upset and prove they belong on the same field. That being said, it is the responsibility of those in change to ensure their safety and heading into BCS games handicapped by the college, the PL, and asinine scheduling is not ideal. I want to see these guys stay healthy, graduate, and be leaders in their fields, and I view HC football as an incredible learning opportunity that will serve them well later in life. That is the role of engaged alumni and it should augment the efforts of the coaches and administration. But all these kids really know at this point is how to go into battle, whether that’s football or classes. That’s what got them their scholarships and their admission letter. They’re kids. What they are owed is the ability to compete on a somewhat level FCS playing field first, and once that happens, these FBS games would look much more realistic. This Syracuse game is a BCS game at the wrong team at the wrong time. HC went ahead and scheduled it but failed to take the necessary steps to ensure competitiveness and safety.
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 24, 2019 7:21:24 GMT -5
I think Chesney, by reserving some schollies for transfers, knew he had to bring in a couple of additions to this team in hopes of competing a little better against Navy and 'Cuse. I don't have a problem with us or other FCS teams scheduling well-known eastern powers in the FBS if this means good attendance and a good payout. Unfortunately, I would only do this if our program could compete. Our offense is anemic and we need a better QB. Someone with more confidence and poise. Maybe someone who led the 2nd team offense for a while against ACC players at Wake Forest. Time for a change. Otherwise it will be 60-0 Syracuse
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 24, 2019 7:38:23 GMT -5
Joe - I enjoy most of your commentary and perspectives on the football program but why the fixation on injuries specifically against FBS teams? Injuries could happen against any opponent. My roommate broke his leg during a 55-0 curb-stomping of Georgetown.
Understood that there is an elevated injury concern against teams that run particular systems, notably the service academies with their cut-blocking schemes.
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Post by joe on Sept 24, 2019 8:25:08 GMT -5
Risk/benefit ratio. If you’re opponent is disproportionately bigger, faster, stronger, older, and deeper, I’d say your chances of being injured are higher. Of course there is probably no statistical proof of this, but it would be a shame to squander a key player who could help win us a league championship. And if ‘Cuse goes up 50-0 in the first half, what are we supposed to do, keep playing our starters or start sending out our 3rd and 4th stringers?
Don’t get me wrong, I love these FBS games, just not this game at this time. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things. FBS games should be played in week one, and if we truly want to keep playing them we need to make some changes across the board so we at least have a chance of competing. Navy is a prime example. I believe a top caliber FCS team could have won that game. Scheduling an FBS game against a team like ‘Cuse in week 4/5 was an aggressive move but would have been fine had HC committed to doing all the other little things needed to mitigate against the ugliness that will happen on Saturday. This is the time of year where HC traditionally starts focusing on the end of the OOC and its PL slate. This game an an enormous and unnecessary obstacle.
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Post by breezy on Sept 24, 2019 8:44:00 GMT -5
I don't remember all the details, but I recall that the Syracuse game was originally scheduled to be played very early in the season, and was subsequently moved back (I believe at Syracuse's request).
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Post by flyer2sader on Sept 24, 2019 8:49:43 GMT -5
Teddy Capsis LITERALLY SAID, when asked about the BC game, that it was part of the reason he committed to HC. Did he feel good about the game after he played? (HC played many challenging games during his playing career including the one BC game) I did feel good after the game. I believe that quote was after the game when a reporter asked me if it was enjoyable to lose by so many points. We played many challenging teams but BC was the only team we faced with a legitimate Heisman Candidate, multiple NFL draft picks including a first round O-Lineman, so in that regard it’s thrilling. The whole atmosphere is different and it was great. I’m not saying every week should be against a dark horse Acc Champion but i think it’s good for the team and recruiting especially, to play teams of this caliber and prominence.
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Post by nhteamer on Sept 24, 2019 9:31:12 GMT -5
HEAR HEAR!
The HC alum accountants, lawyers, teachers, doctor, brokers don't like these games.
The PLAYERS love them.
Play these games.
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