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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 30, 2019 6:21:23 GMT -5
..because they play football in that league, I guess. There's 10 basketball schools now, 12 isn't a bad number. Wonder if there's some desire for those two to stick together w/Binghamton, which doesn't have football. UNH and Maine are also in that conference for football...your argument is very weak. I don’t think America East would be interested in bringing in Holy Cross anyways since it is all large public universities. BU left over this and so did Northeastern. The CAA would take Stony Brook and Albany for all-sports way before they would take UNH and especially Maine. And it very well could be that the A-East would have no interest in HC. I have zero evidence that anyone from school presidents to casual fans in that league are pining for us to join.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 30, 2019 7:01:53 GMT -5
My final thoughts from the game:
BAD: defense still, ah, not real good BAD: we lost the game BAD: with the shorter rotation, fouls a real problem, particularly with the bigs GOOD: Coach Nelson showing flexibility GOOD: the game seems to be slowing down a bit for RWade; hoping he might be poised to take a big step up in league play GOOD: AB stepping up and playing out of position GOOD: JOE PRIDGEN
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Post by bigfan on Dec 30, 2019 7:31:09 GMT -5
Let's face it, Fr. Brooks screwed up the football and basketball programs.
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Post by spenser on Dec 30, 2019 7:36:42 GMT -5
Let's face it, Fr. Brooks screwed up the football and basketball programs. But not the College as a whole. And in the big picture what’s more important.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 30, 2019 7:42:33 GMT -5
And there's no way of knowing if HC would have been the Fordham of the Big East in basketball....
Glass half full types might say HC would have been a clone of Villanova, but who really knows?
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Post by Tom on Dec 30, 2019 8:01:00 GMT -5
And there's no way of knowing if HC would have been the Fordham of the Big East in basketball....
Glass half full types might say HC would have been a clone of Villanova, but who really knows? Taking this tangent even further, what percentage of kids starting in the Big East today do we think could get into Holy Cross? Even at SAT optional schools, athletes are required to submit scores. I'm guessing if that data is out there somewhere, Bison knows where it is.
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purple71
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 169
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Post by purple71 on Dec 30, 2019 8:15:58 GMT -5
I just went through the box score and we acquired ourselves well against a much more athletic team. 30 rebounds each and Siena had an aircraft carrier from Notte Dame in the paint. However Siena’s 7-2 edge in steals was a killer as was their advantage in trips to the foul line 16-6.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 30, 2019 8:24:02 GMT -5
There's no sense debating league affiliation at this point there is no league better than the PL we could get into. Our fate was sealed on that Sunday many years ago when Brooks went against the wishes of his athletic people and turned down the BE. He obviously didn't have the foresight Gavitt did in knowing where college basketball was heading and the need for conference affiliation to be able to compete nationally. He apparently thought we could go it alone and continue to be competitive but Blaney and Perry knew better. Perry tried one more time to get us into what is now the A-10 and Brooks nixed that as well. As a result other than a few years here and there we've been floundering since that time. That being said there is no excuse for being a doormat in the PL. The excuse of poor facilities is no longer an issue and I don't want to hear about us not being able to get kids in that other league schools do. There's nothing standing in the way of success that good coaching and recruiting won't fix. Hopefully we have the right guy to do the job as I'm sick of hearing that we had a good effort in a 12 point loss to the likes of Siena. possum- Respectfully, there is quite a bit of erroneous revisionist history about Fr. Brooks in your post. You mischaracterized his position. Fr. Brooks had the foresight to understand that the BE was not the best move for HC. His decision was not about going it alone to achieve national prominence in B-ball.Quite simply, he disliked the overemphasis in the BE and in college athletics. Fr. Brooks often reminded us that HC was a small LAC with high academic standards.The BE simply did not fit the school's profile. He was not willing to allow HC to make the academic sacrifices in time, admissions, and academic rigor needed to successfully compete in the BE. In your love of HC you are coming from a place centered on what is best for its b-ball team. Fr. Brooks had a much broader concern, namely what in his view was best for HC in its entirety. Some disagree with his decision but I think it is only fair to present his views accurately. IMO, Fr. Brooks made the correct decision. Happy holiday. LoveHC This post may not be directly related to the Siena game but there is certainly an indirect causal relationship. The truth be known the good Father had one reason for declining the Big East that Sunday—he was upset he had little or no involvement in the process. It was his ego that if it wasn’t his idea then it wasn’t the right approach for HC and he didn’t want this to be an athletics announcement, but a President’s announcement he led. the spin on this board and in other circles as to why no big East ignores the events and conversations that fateful Sunday He enjoyed sports and wanted to win he wanted to be a nationally if not globally recognized academic institution, and he wanted the endowment to be large enough to make the future of HC bright for generations to come. Aspirational for sure, but I leave it to others to decide if he was successful does it matter today? Not really we are where we are and I prefer to look forward and build towards some of the goals Brooks wanted to achieve, but didn’t know how create a winning tradition in athletics- the league doesn’t matter but the culture, talent, coaches, and community support do improve the academic reputation of the school-hold true to Liberal Arts, but consider transformational additions that attract future students raise enough money to provide a sustainable future for the school - no better time than today to pull it in keep growing our alumni networks for students and graduates-efforts like 90 wide make us different and better If you look closely at the list of goals, and give it some thought, each of the above are linked, and despite the brilliance, kindness and generosity of Father Brooks, his decisions blocked him from delivering on his mission and Dream. ‘if we add a new thread let the focus be what did we learn over the past fifty years that will allow us to build on the goals and create the best future for our great school
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 30, 2019 8:24:33 GMT -5
My final thoughts from the game: BAD: defense still, ah, not real good BAD: we lost the game BAD: with the shorter rotation, fouls a real problem, particularly with the bigs GOOD: Coach Nelson showing flexibilityGOOD: the game seems to be slowing down a bit for RWade; hoping he might be poised to take a big step up in league play GOOD: AB stepping up and playing out of position GOOD: JOE PRIDGENI have happily shared driving duties with NAD on the Pridgen Bandwagon since last winter - believe everybody's on board now, and we need another bus. Expect him to be named RoW later today for the fourth straight week, which may be a PL record.
My respect for Nelson grew significantly yesterday - not just his tactical decisions, but his handling of the personnel issue. Hopefully, the latter is now resolved, but also possible it doesn't end well - either way, Nelson made a necessary point.
Also worth mentioning on the stat front - HC hauled down a season-best (vs. its D1 opponents) 82% of available rebounds at the defensive end. Notable since Siena is a very good rebounding team, and because I think it shows the effort our guys expended all afternoon.
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Post by possum on Dec 30, 2019 8:54:44 GMT -5
EFG's explanation of why we turned down an invitation to join a league with our traditional rivals makes as much sense as any, the idea originated at the athletic rather than the Presidential level which is not the way the iron hand ruled at HC.
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 9:02:10 GMT -5
EFG's explanation of why we turned down an invitation to join a league with our traditional rivals makes as much sense as any, the idea originated at the athletic rather than the Presidential level which is not the way the iron hand ruled at HC. I think Fr. Brooks was intent on eliminating athletic scholarships at HC probably from early on in his tenure. I remember reading a quote from him that having athletic scholarships wasn't socially just.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 30, 2019 9:05:47 GMT -5
EFG's explanation of why we turned down an invitation to join a league with our traditional rivals makes as much sense as any, the idea originated at the athletic rather than the Presidential level which is not the way the iron hand ruled at HC. This is not my version or interpretation of history but comes from a direct conversation with Father and EBW in DC as we discussed football and future big East possibilities honestly none of it matters but what is important is the path we take to deliver academic and athletic excellence for the future.
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Post by possum on Dec 30, 2019 9:12:36 GMT -5
Trimster you're probably right Brooks apparently didn't like those late 80's football teams that ran roughshod over our opponents as soon as the Ivy's threatened to stop playing us he discontinued scholarships. He was the grim reaper of athletics.
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 9:15:03 GMT -5
And there's no way of knowing if HC would have been the Fordham of the Big East in basketball....
Glass half full types might say HC would have been a clone of Villanova, but who really knows? Taking this tangent even further, what percentage of kids starting in the Big East today do we think could get into Holy Cross? Even at SAT optional schools, athletes are required to submit scores. I'm guessing if that data is out there somewhere, Bison knows where it is. We don't know but we chose to compete with the Big East before there was a BE and could have asked the same question then. Admittedly we didn't play everyone home and away every year except for UConn and BC, so it was on a smaller scale. It didn't seem to hurt our academic reputation then. A bigger question is how many truly outstanding student-athlete hoop players never gave HC a look after 1980.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 30, 2019 9:33:47 GMT -5
honestly none of it matters An appropriate title for a new thread, where everybody can post ad nauseam about conference affiliation, Father Brooks, what might have been, memories of things that never were, etc.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2019 9:34:33 GMT -5
Taking this tangent even further, what percentage of kids starting in the Big East today do we think could get into Holy Cross? Even at SAT optional schools, athletes are required to submit scores. I'm guessing if that data is out there somewhere, Bison knows where it is. We don't know but we chose to compete with the Big East before there was a BE and could have asked the same question then. Admittedly we didn't play everyone home and away every year except for UConn and BC, so it was on a smaller scale. It didn't seem to hurt our academic reputation then. A bigger question is how many truly outstanding student-athlete hoop players never gave HC a look after 1980. /\ That is something I've talked about with others. I can't think of a time in the last 30 years I've heard that HC landed so-and-so as a hoops recruit and thought wow, how did they land him?
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 9:40:19 GMT -5
Doesn't change the fact that my assertion is correct....Holy Cross basketball in the PL will be low mid major whether we are having success in it or not....nobody cares....people would care if we played PC, BC, Georgetown, Villanova etc It just is what it is sadly.....we are basically just another Bryant or Merrimack in hoop today.
No, it's not.
Yes, Willard era is a lone bright spot in the PL period for HC. Correlation is not causation.
You could say the same thing about the Potter/Vicens/Perry 5-6 year window as the lone bright spot in the ~30 years before the PL, too.
If you are going to go with 30 years, that obviously is not true. That era began in 74-75. From 47-61, HC finished in the final AP top twenty many times. Even as the 60's progressed and we couldn't win the big games late in the season, (BC, PC and St. John's), to gain a coveted berth in the NIT, HC hoops was a going concern in Eastern Basketball. For the last 40 years except for the very end of the Blaney Era and 6-7 years of the Willard Era, not so much.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 30, 2019 9:42:39 GMT -5
I guess you missed a few conversations about recruits that HC did land. That some did not work out as their publicity might have led fans to expect, does not mean that there were not such conversations. What we always hear about - ad nauseam - are recruits we lost to other schools. I hope with our new coach that is reversed.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 30, 2019 9:44:34 GMT -5
The truth be known the good Father had one reason for declining the Big East that Sunday—he was upset he had little or no involvement in the process. It was his ego that if it wasn’t his idea then it wasn’t the right approach for HC and he didn’t want this to be an athletics announcement, but a President’s announcement he led. the spin on this board and in other circles as to why no big East ignores the events and conversations that fateful Sunday He enjoyed sports and wanted to win he wanted to be a nationally if not globally recognized academic institution, and he wanted the endowment to be large enough to make the future of HC bright for generations to come. Aspirational for sure, but I leave it to others to decide if he was successful does it matter today? Not really we are where we are and I prefer to look forward and build towards some of the goals Brooks wanted to achieve, but didn’t know how create a winning tradition in athletics- the league doesn’t matter but the culture, talent, coaches, and community support do improve the academic reputation of the school-hold true to Liberal Arts, but consider transformational additions that attract future students raise enough money to provide a sustainable future for the school - no better time than today to pull it in keep growing our alumni networks for students and graduates-efforts like 90 wide make us different and better If you look closely at the list of goals, and give it some thought, each of the above are linked, and despite the brilliance, kindness and generosity of Father Brooks, his decisions blocked him from delivering on his mission and Dream. ‘if we add a new thread let the focus be what did we learn over the past fifty years that will allow us to build on the goals and create the best future for our great school Sir, You do make a lot of statements about Fr. Brooks. Obviously, you must have been his psychoanalyst involved in deep therapy sessions with the man for you to know that his decision was ego-driven. If not his therapist then it appears that much of what you wrote is mere projection on your part. As for spin, once again another erroneous comment on your part. Unless you are able to again magically get in the heads of other posters it is mere projection on your part. I was there in conversation with Fr. Brooks around that time. There was no spin. There was only the truth. Happy holiday. LoveHC Spin starts with the originator and not those that repeat the version of the truth. We choose to believe the truth we want to follow. Given my conversations at that time I choose to respectfully disagree and will leave it at that.
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 9:45:18 GMT -5
honestly none of it matters An appropriate title for a new thread, where everybody can post ad nauseam about conference affiliation, Father Brooks, what might have been, memories of things that never were, etc. it is pointless at this point. As others have said, Wash, Rinse, Repeat. The rest of the PL must be so tired of us.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 30, 2019 9:59:14 GMT -5
And there's no way of knowing if HC would have been the Fordham of the Big East in basketball....
Glass half full types might say HC would have been a clone of Villanova, but who really knows? Taking this tangent even further, what percentage of kids starting in the Big East today do we think could get into Holy Cross? Even at SAT optional schools, athletes are required to submit scores. I'm guessing if that data is out there somewhere, Bison knows where it is. I don't think there is any data on this, at least any that is publicly available. However in recent years, I have talked to a few PL assistant coaches and asked them what percentage of the kids who end up as D1 players are recruitable by their school. Answer generally was about 10%.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2019 10:07:54 GMT -5
hcpride /\ That is something I've talked about with others. I can't think of a time in the last 30 years I've heard that HC landed so-and-so as a hoops recruit and thought wow, how did they land him? I guess you missed a few conversations about recruits that HC did land. That some did not work out as their publicity might have led fans to expect, does not mean that there were not such conversations. What we always hear about - ad nauseam - are recruits we lost to other schools. I hope with our new coach that is reversed. Oh, I 've heard the hype on a few but never thought, "Wow, how did we ever land that guy?" after personally checking into the stats/level of competition, etc. Not in the last 30 years or so. As trimster noted. Off the topic but I remember hearing that Speedy Claxton was heading to Hofstra and immediately thought "Wow, how did Hofstra ever land that guy?" Same thought when Warney went to SBU. Nelson lands one of those guys who could go to much stronger programs - but shows up at HC and dominates the PL - and we are off to the races.
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 10:16:51 GMT -5
I am hoping we are saying soon, "How did Bill Carmody land those 3 kids."
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2019 10:26:27 GMT -5
/\ LOL (I assume he is no longer recruiting for us.)
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Post by trimster on Dec 30, 2019 10:40:27 GMT -5
/\ LOL (I assume he is no longer recruiting for us.) I assume not, at least not officially but the fact remains, he did recruit the Ann Arbor two and JP.
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