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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 12:31:09 GMT -5
Again, I'm not in love with PL football but to mix metaphors, "any port in the storm" applies here. The league allows us to compete at a national FCS-level...mostly, we can continue to play against Ivies which we've done so for a century+, play some CAA schools (without having to play a full CAA schedule) and play 1 or 2 FBS games some years. It's really kind of a "sweet spot" for us in football. We can challenge ourselves outside the PL and then most years, win 1 or 2 tough PL games to get the automatic-bid. What could become interesting, is how the PL will respond if things remain in place (mostly Chesney and the culture he has created) for the next 5-10 years and HC continues to dominate the league in football. Will the league be sanguine with HC winning the football league title 9 out of 10 years etc??? Hopefully they will invest to keep up with the Joneses.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 7, 2022 12:43:59 GMT -5
Great now I'm down the rabbit hole...CAA football by 2027. **Delaware to FBS North Division: Maine, UNH, Rhody, HC, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham South Division: Nova, Monmouth, Towson, W&M, Richmond, Hampton, Elon All right I'm done...Beat Merrimack 2022! While the PL is not my dream residence for HC in any sport, I'd rather leave things as they are than be wedded to the likes of Albany, Stony Brook, Towson and Hampton.. Rhody, Maine and Monmouth don't excite me much either. At least in the PL, we're with like institutions as far as size, history and academic standing.. Again, I'm inclined to agree for now. Per my other comments on the page...this was more spit balling the "What if" scenarios for football in the PL if the league approaches relegation. (Loss of the 2 associate members G'Town and/or Fordham). We either add other schools (Marist?) and keep the PL intact for football or make moves...again not my base case next 2-4 years but something that merits attention. Onto the 2022 season!
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 7, 2022 13:20:12 GMT -5
That offer to Terry Simmons Jr from page 35 is no longer up on his Twitter page.
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Post by crusader1970 on Feb 7, 2022 14:39:51 GMT -5
How? Georgetown can't play anyone. The best "step-up" scholarship opponent they could get last year was Delaware State, who is not returning the game. How's that for national identity? South of New Haven, Ivy League schools are sunken logs when it comes to national identity. They have done Georgetown no good in that regard and no one cares, no one, that Georgetown plays Columbia. Anyone big coming to the GU schedules this year, with three open dates? No one has signed a deal. GU FB is in the fascinating column. What a poor step sister to GU BB.Georgetown Football actually has won more PL games this year (1-5) than its basketball team which has not won a single BE game (0-10).
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Post by HC92 on Feb 7, 2022 14:58:11 GMT -5
We can talk all we want about moving football conferences but I agree with others that it will not materially change the trajectory of the College to be in a better FCS league. The only way to move the needle would be with a massive investment in basketball. We’re talking new arena, great (i.e. expensive) coach, more recruiting $, more travel $, more redshirts, lower academic standards, etc. and that would all be outside the PL due to redshirting and lower academic standards. Not sure where we could logically go to build the program to a national level. Maybe A10, I guess. Not sure it can be done but we would need to make a huge move if we want it to matter. As a football fan, I’d love CAA football if we keep Chesney and could be competitive but don’t think it moves the needle. And we’d need to make all the same commitments as noted above for basketball. Would like there to be a good solution but I’m not sure there is unless the whole world of college sports as we know it blows up and we have leadership bold enough to step into the abyss and take some high level risk.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 7, 2022 18:05:49 GMT -5
As far back as at least the early '50's the policy of HC as publicly stated has been: Student-athletes are to be academically representative of their class. At the time of the official promulgation of the IL HC publicly stated this policy. One of my roommates was a scholarship player and I watched as he organized his schedule, spent nights in the library as he worked through the same courses (No jock gut classes) as everyone else. He went to law school, was in practice for many years till he retired. I admired him greatly. There is nothing special or unusual about his experience at HC. Whenever, I come across or read about an HC athlete, I am filled with respect and admiration for his success as an athlete and as student. Our scholar-athletes are students first and we should be proud of them and celebrate their accomplishments. HC should never abandon this truly admirable commitment to academics as it endeavors to develop the whole person.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 7, 2022 18:18:06 GMT -5
We can talk all we want about moving football conferences but I agree with others that it will not materially change the trajectory of the College to be in a better FCS league. The only way to move the needle would be with a massive investment in basketball. We’re talking new arena, great (i.e. expensive) coach, more recruiting $, more travel $, more redshirts, lower academic standards, etc. and that would all be outside the PL due to redshirting and lower academic standards. Not sure where we could logically go to build the program to a national level. Maybe A10, I guess. Not sure it can be done but we would need to make a huge move if we want it to matter. As a football fan, I’d love CAA football if we keep Chesney and could be competitive but don’t think it moves the needle. And we’d need to make all the same commitments as noted above for basketball. Would like there to be a good solution but I’m not sure there is unless the whole world of college sports as we know it blows up and we have leadership bold enough to step into the abyss and take some high level risk. I respectfully disagree we have a chance to elevate the program for the first time in 30 years we must take advantage of the opportunity the future begins today
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 19:40:12 GMT -5
National brand identity does not come from playing football in the CAA, it comes from playing an FBS school(s) and Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton in the Ivies. Arguably, if Georgetown was better in football, that would promote national brand identity. And I am told repeatedly on this board that Chesney would prefer not to play an FBS opponent. National brand identity within the Patriot League comes from having the two academies as members. (I believe that HC is the only NCAA school that is a conference member with the USMA, USNA, and the AFA.) I have now read through the strategic plan for the athletic department three times. There is zero indication of any interest of HC abandoning the PL. And talk about putting the cart before the horse, the constant refrain on this board is that HC currently can't compete at the top level of the PL in most PL sports. It's possible, I suppose, that if HC were to become so dominant in the PL that the other members could 'invite' HC to join another conference. As for the Big East, there is no way that a school with 1500 male students could ever be other than a bottom-dweller in the BE, while playing scollie football. IMO, the only school that truly 'profited' from Big East membership was BC, and maybe Villanova in hoops. But both schools transitioned over the last 50 or so years from being local, day-student type schools to residential institutions. BC has about the same number of athletes as does Holy Cross. BC's scollie aid for its athletes amounts to $21.5 million, about double what HC spends.. At $70,000 per full scollie, BC is funding over 300 full scollies., HC about 165. Thanks PP However, I wonder if Chesney would feel the same way about playing some of these FBS games if we were in a conference that allowed us to add more talent and depth on the roster and the scholarships werent limited? I defer to others here that might talk to him or the staff for a response. Clearly he wants to win, but he also seems to be a fierce competitor. If a move in a slightly different direction were possible and he was willing to listen, we paid the coaches significantly more, and the roster could be stronger, do we think his position would change on the quality of the schedule? Again a question-- not a position Yes he would like to play competitive FBS games. If we were in the CCA I believe our present coaching staff would be very happy. Just a guess on my part.
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 19:43:28 GMT -5
Excuse me CAA
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Post by gks on Feb 7, 2022 20:59:40 GMT -5
As far back as at least the early '50's the policy of HC as publicly stated has been: Student-athletes are to be academically representative of their class. At the time of the official promulgation of the IL HC publicly stated this policy. One of my roommates was a scholarship player and I watched as he organized his schedule, spent nights in the library as he worked through the same courses (No jock gut classes) as everyone else. He went to law school, was in practice for many years till he retired. I admired him greatly. There is nothing special or unusual about his experience at HC. Whenever, I come across or read about an HC athlete, I am filled with respect and admiration for his success as an athlete and as student. Our scholar-athletes are students first and we should be proud of them and celebrate their accomplishments. HC should never abandon this truly admirable commitment to academics as it endeavors to develop the whole person. The vast, vast majority of FCS players are students first. Your assumptions that student-athletes at any college not named HC or that is a part of the blowhard Ivy League are not real students is a severe injustice to the work that football players all over the country put into their classwork.
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Post by gks on Feb 7, 2022 21:00:20 GMT -5
Thanks PP However, I wonder if Chesney would feel the same way about playing some of these FBS games if we were in a conference that allowed us to add more talent and depth on the roster and the scholarships werent limited? I defer to others here that might talk to him or the staff for a response. Clearly he wants to win, but he also seems to be a fierce competitor. If a move in a slightly different direction were possible and he was willing to listen, we paid the coaches significantly more, and the roster could be stronger, do we think his position would change on the quality of the schedule? Again a question-- not a position Yes he would like to play competitive FBS games. If we were in the CCA I believe our present coaching staff would be very happy. Just a guess on my part. If HC football was in the CAA you'd keep coaches like Chesney for longer periods.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 7, 2022 21:19:28 GMT -5
As far back as at least the early '50's the policy of HC as publicly stated has been: Student-athletes are to be academically representative of their class. At the time of the official promulgation of the IL HC publicly stated this policy. One of my roommates was a scholarship player and I watched as he organized his schedule, spent nights in the library as he worked through the same courses (No jock gut classes) as everyone else. He went to law school, was in practice for many years till he retired. I admired him greatly. There is nothing special or unusual about his experience at HC. Whenever, I come across or read about an HC athlete, I am filled with respect and admiration for his success as an athlete and as student. Our scholar-athletes are students first and we should be proud of them and celebrate their accomplishments. HC should never abandon this truly admirable commitment to academics as it endeavors to develop the whole person. The vast, vast majority of FCS players are students first. Your assumptions that student-athletes at any college not named HC or that is a part of the blowhard Ivy League are not real students is a severe injustice to the work that football players all over the country put into their classwork. gks Making judgements about any other colleges was never my intent. Please show me where I made any assumptions or implied anything about any other schools. Maybe other colleges such as CAA schools have enunciated the same policy as has HC & the PL. I don't know nor do I care. However, others have written that HC should relax its academic standards to compete at a higher level. I was merely stating my pride in HC's athletes and my belief that HC should never abandon its principles. Peace.
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Post by gks on Feb 7, 2022 21:25:53 GMT -5
The vast, vast majority of FCS players are students first. Your assumptions that student-athletes at any college not named HC or that is a part of the blowhard Ivy League are not real students is a severe injustice to the work that football players all over the country put into their classwork. gks Making judgements about any other colleges was never my intent. Please show me where I made any assumptions or implied anything about any other schools. Maybe other colleges such as CAA schools have enunciated the same policy as has HC & the PL. I don't know nor do I care. However, others have written that HC should relax its academic standards to compete at a higher level. I was merely stating my pride in HC's athletes and my belief that HC should never abandon its principles. Peace. Read your original post. You make it sound as if only student-athletes at HC can become lawyers or other professions as such. By your logic Northwestern should leave the Big Ten immediately and join the PL to be with like-minded academic schools.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 21:27:44 GMT -5
gks Making judgements about any other colleges was never my intent. Please show me where I made any assumptions or implied anything about any other schools. Maybe other colleges such as CAA schools have enunciated the same policy as has HC & the PL. I don't know nor do I care. However, others have written that HC should relax its academic standards to compete at a higher level. I was merely stating my pride in HC's athletes and my belief that HC should never abandon its principles. Peace. Read your original post. You make it sound as if only student-athletes at HC can become lawyers or other professions as such. By your logic Northwestern should leave the Big Ten immediately and join the PL to be with like-minded academic schools. Only if they move closer to Worcester.
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Post by gks on Feb 7, 2022 21:33:11 GMT -5
Read your original post. You make it sound as if only student-athletes at HC can become lawyers or other professions as such. By your logic Northwestern should leave the Big Ten immediately and join the PL to be with like-minded academic schools. gks Do you agree with the aforementioned HC/PL policy on student athletes? Yes or no. Of course. Holy Cross is not unique in having student-athletes as part of the general student population. It happens everywhere. Even at state schools that some her love to say HC shouldn't be associated with. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 7, 2022 21:45:47 GMT -5
gks Do you agree with the aforementioned HC/PL policy on student athletes? Yes or no. Of course. Holy Cross is not unique in having student-athletes as part of the general student population. It happens everywhere. Even at state schools that some her love to say HC shouldn't be associated with. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better. To clarify: Student athletes HC are more than part of the general student population. They are academically representative of their class. Big difference. I don'y mean to intrude but I have a question. Why are you so hot on HC moving up to a higher level of competition in the relatively insignificant FCS. Student-athletes are to be part of the general student population? Of what benefit is it to the school to emphasize athletics and possibly shift our academic standard as you described? I don't get it. My hope is we can disagree and still maintain a great deal of respect for each other.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 7, 2022 22:08:54 GMT -5
gks Do you agree with the aforementioned HC/PL policy on student athletes? Yes or no. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better. This statement has no basis in reality. There are some good student-athletes all over the place. There are almost exclusively good student-athletes at the PL and Ivy schools based on their self-imposed limitations on who they will allow into their schools and on their teams. Other schools do not have this limitation. It just means they can recruit from a much deeper pool and will have some good students as well as some bad ones on their teams. Some schools will have higher concentrations of good ones than bad ones. Some schools like Northwestern might have high academic standards for all of their athletes. Other schools might have very low academic requirements for athletes because they want to win games at almost any cost. But you’d be hard-pressed to find a school where the athletes are overall better students than the non-athletes. Athletes get an admissions bump at every school based on their special talent. Kids without such special talents get in primarily on grades and scores.
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Post by trimster on Feb 8, 2022 7:45:12 GMT -5
Of course. Holy Cross is not unique in having student-athletes as part of the general student population. It happens everywhere. Even at state schools that some her love to say HC shouldn't be associated with. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better. To clarify: Student athletes HC are more than part of the general student population. They are academically representative of their class. Big difference. I don'y mean to intrude but I have a question. Why are you so hot on HC moving up to a higher level of competition in the relatively insignificant FCS. Student-athletes are to be part of the general student population? Of what benefit is it to the school to emphasize athletics and possibly shift our academic standard as you described? I don't get it. My hope is we can disagree and still maintain a great deal of respect for each other. I don’t think you have anything to worry about when it comes to student-athletes at HC being academically representative of their class regardless of what conference the college is in, who they compete with, etc. I don’t the alumni want it any other way.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 8, 2022 8:05:17 GMT -5
gks Do you agree with the aforementioned HC/PL policy on student athletes? Yes or no. Of course. Holy Cross is not unique in having student-athletes as part of the general student population. It happens everywhere. Even at state schools that some her love to say HC shouldn't be associated with. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better. IIRC, you did not go to Holy Cross. But your last sentence is a sweeping statement that shows little understanding of the difficulties of recruiting at a school that is in a conference that uses the Academic Index (AI). The AI requires that the AI score of all recruited athletes be within one standard deviation of the average AI score for the previous year's entire entering class. The one standard deviation is below the school-wide AI score, not above. And there is even an AI floor, a minimum score that must be met by every recruited athlete. And from everything I have heard over the years, HC is very content to be in a conference that uses the Academic Index.
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Post by gks on Feb 8, 2022 8:29:26 GMT -5
Of course. Holy Cross is not unique in having student-athletes as part of the general student population. It happens everywhere. Even at state schools that some her love to say HC shouldn't be associated with. Student-athletes at every school are better than the average student. Much better. IIRC, you did not go to Holy Cross. But your last sentence is a sweeping statement that shows little understanding of the difficulties of recruiting at a school that is in a conference that uses the Academic Index (AI). The AI requires that the AI score of all recruited athletes be within one standard deviation of the average AI score for the previous year's entire entering class. The one standard deviation is below the school-wide AI score, not above. And there is even an AI floor, a minimum score that must be met by every recruited athlete. And from everything I have heard over the years, HC is very content to be in a conference that uses the Academic Index. No I did not go to Holy Cross. I went to a dreaded state university. And yes I know what the AI is...been hearing about this self-inflicted governor for decades. This debate within the debate was about the CAA. HC football would thrive and still maintain it's place in the world. I think many on this board are scared of that. The PL is a giant athletic anchor and it hinders recruiting. Chesney is a masterful recruiter who doesn't need to get lucky. If HC were to join a league like the CAA you'd keep coaches like Chesney longer. That's a fact. I as a long-time HC football fan want to see high quality football played in the area....as do many others. We've got a comet streaking through the sky right now. And that comet doesn't want to play in the PL.
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 8, 2022 8:39:53 GMT -5
At the end of the day - I personally don't think HC is moving. CAA is a better conference from top to bottom and I agree - you could potentially keep coaches longer - that is, if they continue to win.
So what do they control - dominating the PL. They control their OOC schedule to a degree. Maine, UNH, URI, Albany, W&M, etc. should always be in the mix IMO. They control the talent they go after - although no guarantees they always get what they want. And they control how they deal with being in the PL. Just dominate it every year and let's roll the dice in the playoffs.
Back to recruiting - as Della Jacono said - They aren't done yet.
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Post by matunuck on Feb 8, 2022 8:48:03 GMT -5
Did HC have a formal AI for athletes prior to the PL?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 8, 2022 9:08:21 GMT -5
Did HC have a formal AI for athletes prior to the PL? Not that I ever heard of. The AI was first adopted by the Ivies. The PL followed, and tinkered with the formula, and added bands for hoops. It is said there is a version of it in the NESCAC, but I don't know that for a fact. Fordham and GU adhere to the AI, but only for football. I sense that the bands for hoops has been dropped. I've seen no reference to ithe bands for hoops for some years.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 8, 2022 9:54:30 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 8, 2022 11:42:59 GMT -5
Fordham and HC both have a shot, and two victories would elevate the annual Ram-Crusader Cup game. I hope Fordham will field a strong team because one potential pitfall of the Holy Cross resurgence is six straight easy PL games providing poor preparation for the FCS tournament. Stony Brook has a treat at UMass. But it's been mentioned that UMass doesn't pay FCS teams to come to Amherst because their attendance is so low. So let's shuffalo off to Buffalo and get the check and the W.
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