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Post by timholycross on Dec 12, 2021 9:06:37 GMT -5
How much were any of us paying attention to the bottom when we were on the top? Adding two teams definitely a factor either way. I'd say BU helped the league's standing, Loyola did not. The other 8 teams, I'd say on the average, what they are right now compared to what they were 10 or so years ago, I can only give you opinions on four of them HC- worse (except the Kearney year) Bucknell- worse AU- worse Colgate- much better That leaves LU, LC, Army and Navy for the rest of you to opine. I'd argue we're worse than the Kearney year. That year was especially awful when you take into account the pre-season expectations. That said, 6 of our 9 PL losses were by single digits. The frustration in that year, to put it mildly, came from the fact that everyone knew we should've been winning those games. Now... I worded that poorly. I meant the program from 2000-10 was better than from 2011-now with the blemish being the Kearney year; it wasn't to imply Kearney's season was worse than what we're seeing now; the team now would have to win 7 or 8 league games to match that team.
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Post by trimster on Dec 12, 2021 11:50:44 GMT -5
The scary thing for me is will we see the same thing next year in Nov and Dec if we win some league games against some of the worst teams in D1 basketball and then some people think the program has turned the corner and played better when in reality, the same concepts on both ends of the floor are only producing better results because of inferior competition. In all fairness, I don't know what the answers are to improvement but I think I have watched enough basketball over the years to recognize what isn't working. Playing the same way with the same group next year, (I know they will be a year older), may not produce much different results unless we really dumb down the schedule.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 12, 2021 12:04:17 GMT -5
You mean like playing more than 2 D3 teams? My late mother had an expression that fits well for me right now: "I'm so mad that I could spit!"
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Post by bison137 on Dec 12, 2021 12:15:04 GMT -5
Top recruits are not coming to the Patriot League. If one does come he quickly leaves and goes to a better program. This years team could be the worst HC basketball team ever. Hopefully the new AD will see the problem. We need better athletes, we can't shoot, rebound or play defense. lots of good players have come to the PL and not transferred out. Do you want a list? It would include CJ McCollum, Mike Muscala, Adonai Foyle, etc.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 12, 2021 12:17:12 GMT -5
The scary thing for me is will we see the same thing next year in Nov and Dec if we win some league games against some of the worst teams in D1 basketball and then some people think the program has turned the corner and played better when in reality, the same concepts on both ends of the floor are only producing better results because of inferior competition. In all fairness, I don't know what the answers are to improvement but I think I have watched enough basketball over the years to recognize what isn't working. Playing the same way with the same group next year, (I know they will be a year older), may not produce much different results unless we really dumb down the schedule. Anyone paying attention will most likely be able to tell improvement if there is any. Hopefully those in charge won't use the George Costanza "it's not a lie if you believe it" approach.
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Post by crusader1970 on Dec 12, 2021 15:30:49 GMT -5
Top recruits are not coming to the Patriot League. If one does come he quickly leaves and goes to a better program. This years team could be the worst HC basketball team ever. Hopefully the new AD will see the problem. We need better athletes, we can't shoot, rebound or play defense. lots of good players have come to the PL and not transferred out. Do you want a list? It would include CJ McCollum, Mike Muscala, Adonai Foyle, etc. Do you sincerely believe McCollum, Muscala and Foyle would have stayed their 4 years with the advent of the Transfer Portal? We’ll obviously never know but IMO they would have been scooped up by some big time program.
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Post by Crosser on Dec 12, 2021 16:09:56 GMT -5
You mean like playing more than 2 D3 teams? My late mother had an expression that fits well for me right now: "I'm so mad that I could spit!" My mother also frequently used that one - one of many in her vast repertoire of expressions.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 12, 2021 16:48:43 GMT -5
lots of good players have come to the PL and not transferred out. Do you want a list? It would include CJ McCollum, Mike Muscala, Adonai Foyle, etc. Do you sincerely believe McCollum, Muscala and Foyle would have stayed their 4 years with the advent of the Transfer Portal? We’ll obviously never know but IMO they would have been scooped up by some big time program. Agreed....it's a totally different college hoop landscape from even 3-5 years ago. I could see kids staying and excelling at a Harvard, Yale and Princeton today...tougher sell for the PL schools. Look at our own Grandison, leaving HC for Illinois. There are really no easy answers....sadly, I think we just have to resolve ourselves to be being a "little fish in a big pond"....which if we're being honest, is where we've been since about 1980 or so. This isn't to say we should be as bad as we are now or have been for most of the past decade or so.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 12, 2021 18:39:39 GMT -5
Maybe not Foyle, but surely the other ones would have left.
Foyle wasn't a project who fell through the cracks, was a highly regarded recruit. He went to CU because his guardians (or at least one of them) taught there.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 13, 2021 10:24:37 GMT -5
Whether great players come to the PL or not... whether they stay or they transfer out... the All-PL award is a measure of each of the players that are on those teams at those points in time. Were the coaches good or bad? Were the schemes good or bad? Were the facilities good or bad? Were the OOC schedules good or bad? Those things may factor in, but you're just left with players at the end of the day. Not compared to 50 years ago, not compared to players in the ACC or SEC or PAC-whatever number they're at these days. It's about the Patriot League THAT YEAR.
The fact that other schools have had players be the best of the bunch year in and year out, even with some variety, but HC cannot put anyone into that upper echelon, says that WE are the problem, and not the league.
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Post by notjuanjones on Dec 13, 2021 10:47:13 GMT -5
Do you sincerely believe McCollum, Muscala and Foyle would have stayed their 4 years with the advent of the Transfer Portal? We’ll obviously never know but IMO they would have been scooped up by some big time program. Agreed....it's a totally different college hoop landscape from even 3-5 years ago. I could see kids staying and excelling at a Harvard, Yale and Princeton today...tougher sell for the PL schools. Look at our own Grandison, leaving HC for Illinois. There are really no easy answers....sadly, I think we just have to resolve ourselves to be being a "little fish in a big pond"....which if we're being honest, is where we've been since about 1980 or so. This isn't to say we should be as bad as we are now or have been for most of the past decade or so. I have no dog in this hunt, but it's hard for me to believe that McCollum and/or Muscala would have stayed all four years at their respective schools in the current landscape. FWIW, I don't think our Garrison Carr at AU would have stayed as a senior, either, after we won the PL in '08, if things were then the way they are now. It's just too tempting and easier for kids to leave and play a level or two higher. To your point, we've lost kids the last few years at AU that have been mystifying. They transferred to lateral (or, worse) programs, didn't get nearly as much playing time, won fewer games, etc. But that's the lay of the land today.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2021 10:52:54 GMT -5
and yet, with all these factors, it appears that the PL has improved its standing among all the D-1 conferences over the past 20 years
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2021 11:00:25 GMT -5
Agreed....it's a totally different college hoop landscape from even 3-5 years ago. I could see kids staying and excelling at a Harvard, Yale and Princeton today...tougher sell for the PL schools. Look at our own Grandison, leaving HC for Illinois. There are really no easy answers....sadly, I think we just have to resolve ourselves to be being a "little fish in a big pond"....which if we're being honest, is where we've been since about 1980 or so. This isn't to say we should be as bad as we are now or have been for most of the past decade or so. I have no dog in this hunt, but it's hard for me to believe that McCollum and/or Muscala would have stayed all four years at their respective schools in the current landscape. FWIW, I don't think our Garrison Carr at AU would have stayed as a senior, either, after we won the PL in '08, if things were then the way they are now. It's just too tempting and easier for kids to leave and play a level or two higher. To your point, we've lost kids the last few years at AU that have been mystifying. They transferred to lateral (or, worse) programs, didn't get nearly as much playing time, won fewer games, etc. But that's the lay of the land today. Mystifying indeed. Three of HC's scholarship players (and 2 walk-ons) landed below D-I. Some make sense. One of our former walk-ons is playing at Johns Hopkins. Probably a great decision for that kid. We don't know all the inputs into any of these kids decisions, but based on incomplete information, some of them on the surface do seem mystifying.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 13, 2021 12:29:31 GMT -5
lots of good players have come to the PL and not transferred out. Do you want a list? It would include CJ McCollum, Mike Muscala, Adonai Foyle, etc. Do you sincerely believe McCollum, Muscala and Foyle would have stayed their 4 years with the advent of the Transfer Portal? We’ll obviously never know but IMO they would have been scooped up by some big time program. Don’t know about McCollum, but I am sure that Muscala would have stayed at Bucknell for four years and Foyle at Colgate. My opinion on Muscala is based on numerous conversations with him and his father. Plus many conversations with one of his teammates.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 13, 2021 13:08:27 GMT -5
The thinking of welcoming coaches may adjust to the reality of the results. To me, after the novelty has worn off wouldn't coaches want to be pretty darn sure they are getting five measures of value in exchange for four to put up with all the disruption caused by transfers in and out?
If two players are equally skilled, shouldn't the one who has been in a system playing with his teammates for four years outperform the one who has done it for two years and played in somebody else's system for two?
The problem is when players take the initiative to move, the lower skilled coaches are forever chasing their tail because players will want five measures of coaching skill in exchange for four also.
Which leaves the school that signed the long term guaranteed coaching contract with the unproven coach holding the bag.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2021 16:03:39 GMT -5
I think you are trying to tell us something, LS, below the surface. Haven't read about so many "measures" since the bible.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 13, 2021 16:12:24 GMT -5
I think you are trying to tell us something, LS, below the surface. Haven't read about so many "measures" since the bible. Trying to think of creative ways to say try the Chesney Model in BB, too next time. Although like everyone I am rooting for BN to turn it around.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2021 16:21:21 GMT -5
I know and I admired the effort.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2021 18:40:10 GMT -5
Do you sincerely believe McCollum, Muscala and Foyle would have stayed their 4 years with the advent of the Transfer Portal? We’ll obviously never know but IMO they would have been scooped up by some big time program. Don’t know about McCollum, but I am sure that Muscala would have stayed at Bucknell for four years and Foyle at Colgate. My opinion on Muscala is based on numerous conversations with him and his father. Plus many conversations with one of his teammates. McCollum would’ve ended up at Kansas for his sophomore year in today’s culture. Foyle was offered by DUKE out of Hamilton HS and turned them down because he wanted to go to Colgate where both his parents were on the faculty. Coach K was not happy. Don’t think the portal would’ve altered the trajectory of his college career IMO.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 13, 2021 23:28:45 GMT -5
The lady who sings the national anthem before Duke games is getting fatter.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 19, 2021 17:55:15 GMT -5
8-49 vs. D1 opponents.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 19, 2021 20:10:43 GMT -5
Does any current D1 coach in at least their third season have a worse winning percentage?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 19, 2021 20:45:10 GMT -5
Yes. Mississippi Valley State's Lindsey Hunter is 5-58
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Post by timholycross on Dec 19, 2021 22:19:37 GMT -5
Based on today's game, I'm more down on the recruiting Nelson than the coaching Nelson. Usually, it's the other way around, but the way HC got manhandled under the boards and couldn't make a shot points to who's out there.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 19, 2021 22:39:33 GMT -5
This thread has a great title. Mum's the word about HC BB.
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