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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 1, 2023 12:59:12 GMT -5
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jun 1, 2023 13:31:57 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 1, 2023 13:57:26 GMT -5
For those who don’t already know, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, according to their website, are “a leading-edge Order of queer and trans nuns. We believe all people have a right to express their unique joy and beauty.” They dress in nuns garb and clown makeup and adopt such names as (again, going by their website) Sister Rosie Paper Partridge, Sister Maddie Bout You and Sister Selma Soul. Also for those who don’t already know, the Los Angeles Dodgers are a Major League Baseball team. They dress in blue-and-white uniforms and are known by such names as Mookie, Max and Freddie. And before that, Pee Wee, Jackie and the Duke of Flatbush. The Sisters and the Dodgers had a recent collision of sorts after the Dodgers invited the Sisters to be honored at their annual Pride Night event. The invite was rescinded over complaints that the Sisters are, among other things, anti-Catholic. They were then re-invited after the Dodgers, faced with other organizations threatening to boycott the event, took a closer look at the actual good work done by the Sisters and decided there was a place for them on their Pride Night. As is often the case in the 21st century, everyone found a side to take and ran there with torches held high. But my intention here is not just to take a side — and, yes, I have a side — but to see if we can find some middle ground. I’ll begin here: While a lot of us were spending most of the 1980s wandering along the outskirts of the gay community, stepping inside once in a while and then right back out again, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence were doing God’s work. Now that’s a dodgy piece of writing, as it suggests the Sisters are nuns in the way you might think of nuns, and the way I thought of nuns from my days attending Sunday school at St. Mary’s Church in Cambridge, Mass. But that’s not it at all. I grew to respect the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence mainly because they were on the front lines of the AIDS epidemic, helping those who truly needed help and who might not have been getting it from their employers, their church, even their own families. I also respect the Catholic Church. My grandmother Bridget Curran Buckley, who died more than 30 years before I was born, devoted her life to the church. I know this from the teachings of my father, a burly truck driver who each year during the entirety of Lent would attend the 7 a.m. mass before heading to work. For me to insult the church would be to disrespect their memories. And while I’m at it, I have no quarrel with Dodgers pitcher Clayton Kershaw, a great spokesman for the game who plans to launch Christian Faith and Family Day. Sounds like a fine way to honor Catholics dedicated to making the world a better place. Just as the Sisters are dedicated to making the world a better place. Years ago, an old friend, now deceased, told me a terrible story about a nephew who’d been sent out of his house after his parents discovered he was gay. The nephew wound up living in California, where he developed AIDS. His mother finally decided to travel to California to visit her son. She was too late. I tell you this story to illustrate what the Sisters were up to in those days — beyond the one-size-fits-all public perception of what they were doing, that being parading around in nuns garb and makeup. They were also sitting bedside with AIDS patients. They were dropping off food. They were making calls. Based on any of the definitions of “doing God’s work” that I Googled, we have a match here. And the Sisters have been involved in charitable events ever since, which is why the Dodgers invited them to be honored at their annual Pride Night in the first place. As for the common ground I suggested, allow me to share a link to a letter written by Sister Jeannine Gramick, co-founder of the Maryland-based New Ways Ministry, which describes itself as “a Catholic outreach that educates and advocates for equity, inclusion, and justice for LGBTQ+ persons, equipping leaders to build bridges of dialogue within the Church and civil society.” Here’s part of what Sister Jeannine wrote: While I am uncomfortable with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence using the nuns’ old garb to draw attention to bigotry, whether Catholic or not, there is a hierarchy of values in this situation. The choice of clothing, even if offensive to some, can never trump the works of mercy. Just as I have great respect for Catholic nuns because of their compassion and good works over the centuries, I applaud the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence for their financial assistance to those in need. I support them because of all their good works. I believe that any group that serves the community, especially those who are less fortunate or on the margins of society, should be honored. I support your honoring the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. Peace, Sr. Jeannine Gramick, SL, May 27, 2023 The New Ways Ministry has met with occasional opposition. When a Catholic-affiliated organization gets involved in the LGBTQ+ community, that’s going to happen. But it’s worth noting that in 2022 Pope Francis sent a hand-written letter to Sr. Jeannine, offering congratulations for her 50 years of working with and advocating for the LGBTQ+ community. “You have not been afraid of ‘closeness,’ and in getting close you did it ‘feeling the pain’ and without condemning anyone, but with the ‘tenderness’ of a sister and a mother,” wrote Pope Francis, according to The Washington Post. Two members of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence with whom I spoke told me members of the organization have received death threats. One of them asked that his name not be used. When I asked him why he joined the organization, he said, “What drew me to the Sisters is that they are an organization that takes community service seriously. The fact is, we identify as nuns in that we take vows to serve our community.” I spoke with a Boston-based Sister who allowed me to use the name he uses in the organization. “I know of plenty of instances where Sisters will either help someone get medical care or arrange for somebody else to get help,” said Sister Rosetta Stone. “The Sisters can be there, not just as a spiritual resource, but a physical resource as well to get people the services they need. “The Sisters might be in your face in how we appear,” he said. “But we’re not here to pass judgment on other people. We’re a little milder than people might think we are. Are there some very activist Sisters out there? Absolutely. Do we support them? Absolutely. But they never reach a level of strident violence.” Surely the Sisters have kicked up some dust over the years. But if anyone thinks these people are mere exhibitionists, or that their role is to be an opening act in some LGBTQ+ vaudeville show, that’s a terrible miss. These people matter.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 1, 2023 14:27:32 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Jun 1, 2023 14:40:36 GMT -5
The apologists (news media and otherwise, Catholic and otherwise) obscure the actual reality involved with this anti-Catholic hate group. Can’t help noticing the LA Dodgers admins themselves have wisely decided to shut the front door. Stopped their own explaining and/or diversions. Not sure those photos are quite the look they want! From a group they’re honoring.
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Post by HC92 on Jun 1, 2023 14:50:54 GMT -5
So sad that so many good and smart people have lost the ability to look at an issue and do anything but defend the idea/group/argument they think they’re supposed to. These people in 2023 are horrible, ugly, hateful people. No idea what their predecessors did in the 1980s and don’t really care. You don’t have to be afraid to say that out loud. As others have said, plenty of other groups to honor. How any sane person decided this is the one, I have no idea.
If others have specific examples of things the Sisters are doing in 2023 that are worthy of honoring that might outweigh the stripper acts on the crucifix and other items widely circulating, by all means share.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 1, 2023 15:03:04 GMT -5
That's what the Athletic article tried to convey-- the group was doing tremendous good, and that was their real/sole focus. I commented and claim here that if helping the afflicted, ignored, and marginalized was their primary goal, they would spend zero percent of their efforts on trying to be controversial, provocative, or insulting. Grinding on a crucifix doesn't help someone with AIDS or suffering from homelessness. They know what they're doing.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 1, 2023 18:25:48 GMT -5
There goes NASCAR going all WOKE
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 1, 2023 18:37:12 GMT -5
Can we settle on what the acronym is?
How many addition signs?
Recently, I’ve seen an “I” and “A” at the end of LGBTQ.
There are seemingly more letters and addition signs added each year, but it would be helpful to know what the correct one is.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 1, 2023 20:29:46 GMT -5
Can we settle on what the acronym is? How many addition signs? Recently, I’ve seen an “I” and “A” at the end of LGBTQ. There are seemingly more letters and addition signs added each year, but it would be helpful to know what the correct one is. The I is for Intersex and the A is for Asexual.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 1, 2023 22:47:52 GMT -5
More letters to come?
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 1, 2023 23:58:04 GMT -5
Why would Asexuals need to join any advocacy group? Nobody is threatening them. Why not just join the Shakers? As of 2022 only two Shakers remained in Sabathday Lake, Maine.
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Post by clmetsfan on Jun 2, 2023 4:56:00 GMT -5
Why would Asexuals need to join any advocacy group? Nobody is threatening them. Why not just join the Shakers? As of 2022 only two Shakers remained in Sabathday Lake, Maine. Why do you care?
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Post by clmetsfan on Jun 2, 2023 5:03:53 GMT -5
1) This would NEVER have been approved it was flamboyant men/things/pick-your-pronouns walking around with A) skull caps, fake noses, white scarves, B) sexified hijabs or other headscarves, or C) traditional African tribal garb. There is a false equivalency between bad things the Church has done and them not being able to claim injustice of their own. 2) This is one of the fundamental flaws, and fears of early observers of democracies and their ability to function and succeed: that people wouldn't have a common, shared interest in a productive outcome that benefits many (a baseball game), but instead would just live in their isolated and ignorant hole, hating those who have a voice and have success until THEY become "king for a day." I can understand the sentiment that many in "majority" groups might feel threatened. It's about equality in many instances, but it seems like revenge in many others. Somebody marginalized a gay person or transvestite 50 years ago before I was alive? Great... NOW you're gonna see all forty of the people in the county who feel that way shut down the main roads and parade along. How do you feel about THAT?! Actually, you can't answer, because if you don't agree-- even though you weren't out with pitch forks and torches going on the offensive-- you are a bigot. There is no counter viewpoint acceptable. The 2% of the weirdos are driving the most powerful organizations, institutions, and businesses in the country. Not dialogue, not votes, not dollars. It's out of control. A) Referring to trans people as "things" is pretty gross of you, Rob. I'd say it's not very Christian of you, but unfortunately that isn't the case. This whole thread, in fact, is a perfect encapsulation of the famous Gandhi quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Please do better. B) "I can understand the sentiment that many in "majority" groups might feel threatened. It's about equality in many instances, but it seems like revenge in many others." You mean like when people who are anything but oppressed pretend that they're the target of hate so that they can justify their institutional bigotry? I wonder how many Yankee fans will feel ostracized by having to look at a rainbow flag the next time they sing along to God Bless America in the 7th inning stretch.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 2, 2023 6:31:39 GMT -5
Anyone else feel this thread has gotten a bit bizarre?
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Post by mm67 on Jun 2, 2023 6:52:59 GMT -5
RGS you took the words out of my mouth. My earlier comment encapsulated by "leave the nuns alone" was far exceeded in scope by others. Once again a thread has gone off the rails as it serves as a fig leaf to provide cover for deeper attitudinal & philosophical differences. Sadly, this outcome was predictable.. Peace. BEAT BC!
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Post by hcpride on Jun 2, 2023 7:05:23 GMT -5
Anyone else feel this thread has gotten a bit bizarre? When one starts with the bizarre notion that the Dodgers would publicly honor an outrageous anti-Catholic hate group in 2023 there's no telling where it will end up. Inevitably (since it is anti-Catholic hate) one finds defenders/apologists - an additional dollop of bizarre (considering the forum).
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Post by clmetsfan on Jun 2, 2023 7:53:05 GMT -5
Anyone else feel this thread has gotten a bit bizarre? Given the thread title, I'd say it started off that way.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 2, 2023 8:52:59 GMT -5
1) This would NEVER have been approved it was flamboyant men/things/pick-your-pronouns walking around with A) skull caps, fake noses, white scarves, B) sexified hijabs or other headscarves, or C) traditional African tribal garb. There is a false equivalency between bad things the Church has done and them not being able to claim injustice of their own. 2) This is one of the fundamental flaws, and fears of early observers of democracies and their ability to function and succeed: that people wouldn't have a common, shared interest in a productive outcome that benefits many (a baseball game), but instead would just live in their isolated and ignorant hole, hating those who have a voice and have success until THEY become "king for a day." I can understand the sentiment that many in "majority" groups might feel threatened. It's about equality in many instances, but it seems like revenge in many others. Somebody marginalized a gay person or transvestite 50 years ago before I was alive? Great... NOW you're gonna see all forty of the people in the county who feel that way shut down the main roads and parade along. How do you feel about THAT?! Actually, you can't answer, because if you don't agree-- even though you weren't out with pitch forks and torches going on the offensive-- you are a bigot. There is no counter viewpoint acceptable. The 2% of the weirdos are driving the most powerful organizations, institutions, and businesses in the country. Not dialogue, not votes, not dollars. It's out of control. A) Referring to trans people as "things" is pretty gross of you, Rob. I'd say it's not very Christian of you, but unfortunately that isn't the case. This whole thread, in fact, is a perfect encapsulation of the famous Gandhi quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Please do better. B) "I can understand the sentiment that many in "majority" groups might feel threatened. It's about equality in many instances, but it seems like revenge in many others." You mean like when people who are anything but oppressed pretend that they're the target of hate so that they can justify their institutional bigotry? I wonder how many Yankee fans will feel ostracized by having to look at a rainbow flag the next time they sing along to God Bless America in the 7th inning stretch. On (A) I'm being facetious at best, admittedly, turning this insanity of labels and pronouns on its side. I would hate to select the wrong moniker and be called closed-minded. Mutilation and changing of the body via surgery and drugs, who knows what the end result is in certain situations. I can't keep up. They're happy; great. I'm merely confused as to what the outcome is.
As for (B)? Two wrongs don't make a right. Whites, Catholics, pretty much anyone who has had power, influence, and control over other groups has abused it throughout history. I use the past tense, but it obviously still occurs. I can't agree with you that there is "institutional" bias when the institutions are the ones that are dedicating specific months (contrived or not) to marginalized groups in February or June or other times. That companies (ones I know firsthand) are forced to hire to quotas for certain groups even at the expense of better qualified candidates. That schools do likewise. That the "S" in ESG tracks the number of women and minority on boards of directors as an economic/investment indicator, but says nothing to the performance of the companies under their stewardship.
It doesn't solve every problem, and problems DO need to be fixed I will 100% agree... I wasn't indoctrinated to hate everyone as a white male when I was born. There is no systematic hate because there is no system teaching it, enforcing it, and punishing the do-gooders, most far more Christ-like than me. People can be good, and people can be bad. People have shown me bias, justified or not, and I have likely in my imperfect past done exactly the same. I take major issue that a less-perfect label of "white man" makes me the only party capable of such hate and failure and imperfection and bias, rather than simply "human."
Regarding the Yankees, I'm not the biggest fan that we have to parade veterans on the field either. In the wake of 9/11 when Kate Smith's version started ringing out in the 7th inning, it felt patriotic and sincere. It seemed to serve as some minor consolation or healing among those in attendance and watching on TV. Now, mid-game stoppage for the "Veteran of the Game" and the singing and all that... it feels contrived, but many other fans-- particularly veterans themselves-- have told me that they have pride the Yankees are the only team still doing the song. Just like rainbow flags, if that's what you like, whatever... it has nothing to do with playing baseball.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 2, 2023 9:04:02 GMT -5
...and neither did banning any recordings of God Bless America by Kate Smith.
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Post by Tom on Jun 2, 2023 9:04:22 GMT -5
Regarding the Yankees, I'm not the biggest fan that we have to parade veterans on the field either. In the wake of 9/11 when Kate Smith's version started ringing out in the 7th inning, it felt patriotic and sincere. It seemed to serve as some minor consolation or healing among those in attendance and watching on TV. Now, mid-game stoppage for the "Veteran of the Game" and the singing and all that... it feels contrived, but many other fans-- particularly veterans themselves-- have told me that they have pride the Yankees are the only team still doing the song. Just like rainbow flags, if that's what you like, whatever... it has nothing to do with playing baseball.
I must confess that I have not been in Fenway since 2021. That being said, it was fairly common back then to have the veteran of the game. There was no stoppage of play. It was between innings during ads and pitcher warm ups. The vet was announced and waved to fans from on top of the dugout. The veteran did not get to step on the field. On Sundays God Bless America was sung. Not a Kate Smith recording. Either a live singer or organist and fans singing
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Post by alum on Jun 2, 2023 9:15:34 GMT -5
Asking for a friend: Has any Catholic been unable to worship because of this group? Has any church closed because of their behavior? Has anyone been denied service at a commercial establishment, denied the right to attend a school, denied the right to use a public park or pool because the "sisters" exist? For that matter, has this group even attempted to deny anyone the ability to do any of these things?
As I, like many here, am a pedant, I am much more concerned about the fact that so many articles about this group have conflated the terms "nun" and "sister."
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 2, 2023 11:13:34 GMT -5
There's no limit to the Catholic bashing. I just saw this piece on the internet, with the teaser headline "10 People Idolized in History Who Were Actually Horrible People".
"Mother Teresa: From Preacher to Breacher
This popular humanitarian’s pictures adorn the walls of many churches across the globe. A user mentions the rampant allegations in her founded institutions regarding misuse of funds, poor medical treatment, and religious evangelism. According to author Christopher Hitchens [now there's an objective observer!], she was less interested in helping the poor than in using them for the expansion of her fundamentalist beliefs."
What an evil woman!!!
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Post by hcpride on Jun 2, 2023 11:13:51 GMT -5
Asking for a friend: Has any Catholic been unable to worship because of this group? Has any church closed because of their behavior? Has anyone been denied service at a commercial establishment, denied the right to attend a school, denied the right to use a public park or pool because the "sisters" exist? For that matter, has this group even attempted to deny anyone the ability to do any of these things? As I, like many here, am a pedant, I am much more concerned about the fact that so many articles about this group have conflated the terms "nun" and "sister." Defenders of minstrel shows and blackface doubtlessly asked similar questions. (Just kidding, I don't think they had any defenders or at least not in 2023.) Moving aside from the fact that it is the Dodgers' decision to honor (!) the group - rather than the existence of the group itself - that has drawn the most ire, it may be time for this "parody" troupe to retire their obscene and anti-Catholic garb and schtick.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 2, 2023 11:51:05 GMT -5
As I, like many here, am a pedant, I am much more concerned about the fact that so many articles about this group have conflated the terms "nun" and "sister." I am afraid that even the majority of Catholics use these two words interchangeably as if they meant the same thing, which they do not. Our ignorance of our own faith and its practices does tend to leave Catholics open for sich parodies.
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