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Post by rgs318 on Jan 3, 2020 8:25:28 GMT -5
Dave, Your choice of "interesting" to watch is probably a better one than "fun." I stand corrected.
Trimster, Your litany of past events was interesting, but unnecessary for me. I watched (and remember) each of the things you cite. Was it some sort of exercise in masochism? I believe you do not enjoy watching this team develop and seeing how Coach Nelson uses the personnel at his disposal. If you had so much difficulty the first time around, are we going to hear about every one of these disappointments each time out? No need to point out HC's poor defense...the scoreboard does that pretty well. As a personal choice, I do believe better days are ahead.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 3, 2020 8:28:49 GMT -5
NAD, the Stadium announcers said Kyle was sick. Presumably not contagious. Just think whatever he had, he's on his way to recovery but probably not 100% to play.
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Post by crosspride on Jan 3, 2020 8:28:56 GMT -5
we are a completely different team with lowder on the court. i don't pretend to know what was going on with lowder not playing the last few games. others may know for sure. perhaps it was injury, which i hope. but barring completely egregious violation, if lowder not playing was trying to send some kind of message, continuing to lose games and playing players out of position to prove some kind of point sends another message altogether. and not a positive one. unless he was being a complete asshole, which there is no indication of other than moping in layup lines (we had players recently who moped while in the game and still played), lowder needs to play. we were competitive tonight and will be competitive in the pl with him. we are absolutely awful without him. furthermore, it's not fair to the other players to play them out of position (butler running the point is ridiculous with lowder as a healthy option as he was tonight) and put the entire team in a tough spot by playing without a point guard if he was simply in the doghouse. while this roster is limited, the extreme variance in minutes from game to game which is apparently based on practice is not sitting well with me either. i want the players out on the court who are going to help us win, regardless of who hustles the most in practice that week or whatever else might have been going on reading into some of the comments that were made. i'm admittedly not as tied into what is going on with the program as i once was, and maybe lowder was just being rested for league play and nelson's comments were a belichickian ruse. hopefully whatever happened in the past is in the past and lowder is our point guard from here on out as he is the best option at the point for this team without any question whatsoever. You don’t know what is going on, but then insinuate it’s just moping in layup lines? And then suggest that playing time shouldn’t be based on effort in practice? Do you think Nelson doesn’t want to win games and play one of his 2 best players? This is a team who, for recent recruiting classes, have had more players kicked off the team and/or expelled than have graduated. If we want that to continue, then simply follow the playing time and discipline approaches you laid out above. By the way, Anythony Thompson, who you’re referring to about moping in games and have constantly criticized on this board, had the respect of all of his teammates and was looked up to as a leader. If Lowder can get to that level, he will and should play every minute.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 3, 2020 8:32:47 GMT -5
we are a completely different team with lowder on the court. i don't pretend to know what was going on with lowder not playing the last few games. others may know for sure. perhaps it was injury, which i hope. but barring completely egregious violation, if lowder not playing was trying to send some kind of message, continuing to lose games and playing players out of position to prove some kind of point sends another message altogether. and not a positive one. unless he was being a complete asshole, which there is no indication of other than moping in layup lines (we had players recently who moped while in the game and still played), lowder needs to play. we were competitive tonight and will be competitive in the pl with him. we are absolutely awful without him. furthermore, it's not fair to the other players to play them out of position (butler running the point is ridiculous with lowder as a healthy option as he was tonight) and put the entire team in a tough spot by playing without a point guard if he was simply in the doghouse. while this roster is limited, the extreme variance in minutes from game to game which is apparently based on practice is not sitting well with me either. i want the players out on the court who are going to help us win, regardless of who hustles the most in practice that week or whatever else might have been going on reading into some of the comments that were made. i'm admittedly not as tied into what is going on with the program as i once was, and maybe lowder was just being rested for league play and nelson's comments were a belichickian ruse. hopefully whatever happened in the past is in the past and lowder is our point guard from here on out as he is the best option at the point for this team without any question whatsoever. If we are going to learn how to win with this current roster, I agree he is the only option. Butler is solid, but he is not a point and we are losing his other contributions during the course of a game, With Lowder we have 3 legitimate scorers -- Pridgen, Lowder and Butler-- and each becomes better with the multiple options on the floor.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 3, 2020 8:59:04 GMT -5
The previous regime vetted recruits based on "pass, dribble, shoot" and held them accountable for the way they behaved at one end of the court. My early impression is that Nelson is recruiting whole-court skills and character, and is holding his student-athletes accountable for how they behave on the court, in practice, in the classroom, and in the community. W's and L's are secondary this year to establishing and maintaining this culture
It may be a rocky transition, but believe the program will be better off than it was.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 3, 2020 9:15:50 GMT -5
A lesson about doing things the right way that never gets old.
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Post by dadominate on Jan 3, 2020 9:42:50 GMT -5
we are a completely different team with lowder on the court. i don't pretend to know what was going on with lowder not playing the last few games. others may know for sure. perhaps it was injury, which i hope. but barring completely egregious violation, if lowder not playing was trying to send some kind of message, continuing to lose games and playing players out of position to prove some kind of point sends another message altogether. and not a positive one. unless he was being a complete asshole, which there is no indication of other than moping in layup lines (we had players recently who moped while in the game and still played), lowder needs to play. we were competitive tonight and will be competitive in the pl with him. we are absolutely awful without him. furthermore, it's not fair to the other players to play them out of position (butler running the point is ridiculous with lowder as a healthy option as he was tonight) and put the entire team in a tough spot by playing without a point guard if he was simply in the doghouse. while this roster is limited, the extreme variance in minutes from game to game which is apparently based on practice is not sitting well with me either. i want the players out on the court who are going to help us win, regardless of who hustles the most in practice that week or whatever else might have been going on reading into some of the comments that were made. i'm admittedly not as tied into what is going on with the program as i once was, and maybe lowder was just being rested for league play and nelson's comments were a belichickian ruse. hopefully whatever happened in the past is in the past and lowder is our point guard from here on out as he is the best option at the point for this team without any question whatsoever. You don’t know what is going on, but then insinuate it’s just moping in layup lines? And then suggest that playing time shouldn’t be based on effort in practice? Do you think Nelson doesn’t want to win games and play one of his 2 best players? This is a team who, for recent recruiting classes, have had more players kicked off the team and/or expelled than have graduated. If we want that to continue, then simply follow the playing time and discipline approaches you laid out above. By the way, Anythony Thompson, who you’re referring to about moping in games and have constantly criticized on this board, had the respect of all of his teammates and was looked up to as a leader. If Lowder can get to that level, he will and should play every minute. talk about the pot calling the kettle black! your clueless final paragraph is equally insinuating that lowder does not have the respect of his teammates. hypocrisy much? thompson visibly hung his head and did not engage during many timeouts in games. that's an on the court fact, not something that happened behind closed doors, and he did not demonstrate on the court leadership qualities that many of our other players have had over the years. as a coach that type of behavior drove me crazy, and while sometimes it would be tolerated it truly great players, thompson was not one of them. lowder has not demonstrated any of this type of behavior during games and as a freshman is already a better player than thompson was as a senior. i also haven't brought him up by name in some time, but if you choose to live in the past, so be it. the fact is that RIGHT NOW we are a better basketball team with lowder on the court. your animus towards anything having to do with carmody doesn't change that fact. the program needed a change in leadership. we're also 1-13 right now with two of the worst losses in program history. barring any proof of anything to the contrary other than what nelson himself said about lowder being healthy, i question the move of sitting lowder in a league game and having austin butler and clayton lesann running the point last night. it's stupid and proves nothing.
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Post by Ray on Jan 3, 2020 9:46:11 GMT -5
I think we need to remind ourselves that they are playing with a roster short 3 scholarship players. If you use up those slots with 3 above average players, everything changes. I hope that 3 years from now Druzi is in the home stretch of a fabulous HC career, and we all look back and give the coach a thumbs up on his strategy to sit him (if that is indeed what has happened). Being in the honeymoon stage, CBN is getting close to 100% of the benefit of the doubt (and as a result, Druzi is getting close to 0%), but I think we must also remember that this is CBN's first rodeo as a head coach. Let's hope it all works out for the best. All this "unselfish" stuff does have me scratching my head a bit, though. I have to assume he refers to things outside of game action (would be great if Dick L. asked him to give an example of unselfishness if CBN continues to use the term in interviews). I don't see where Druzi's playing style is unselfish ON the court - he is clearly a specially talented offensive player (like JP); I want him to have a scoring mentality! While I would not say I am having "fun" watching the games, I do find it very interesting to watch the transformation. IMHO the next big step in this phase is to get MF comfortable in the system; it's a must. AB and CN have my utmost respect for their efforts and sacrifice; and while CN has missed his share of inside shots, he is also starting to mix it up more with defense and rebounding. KC's situation is strange to me (unless I missed something). I know he started the season hurt (in boot), then after playing a bit I thought he had some kind of illness. Is he hurt again or sick? If sick, why would he be on the bench? It would have been nice to have him available last night to spend a few minutes on Kostecka; if nothing else it would have given JP a bit of a breather. I still feel like fatigue played a role in the last 10 minutes of the game. Agree with all of this, especially the bolded.
Just to pile on to the Lowder situation. I think there were a number of factors in play, you can assign percentage weights to them however you want:
1. Lowder's hip wasn't 100%. 2. Lowder's adoption of Nelson's philosophy ("attack and serve", "unselfish", etc) was somehow lacking. 3. (one I haven't seen mentioned yet) If Lowder was playing too selfishly for Nelson's tastes, there's also an implicit indictment of the rest of the team: guys were too content to stand around and watch Lowder, weren't working hard enough to get open/give Lowder an option to be unselfish. Basically, if Lowder being a gunner was a crutch on the offensive end, maybe Nelson saw some benefit in taking him away for a couple of games and forcing the rest of the team to find ways to score without their crutch. Sure, it's not fair to guys like Butler and Lasann in particular to play out of position, but it does seem like some others (Pridgen, Wade, Niego) did step up to fill the void. Now that we're in league play, lesson learned on all sides, and you re-introduce a healthy Lowder to the mix and hopefully get a more balanced, multi-faceted offense out the other side of this experiment.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 3, 2020 9:50:35 GMT -5
Ray, thanks for the thoughtful commentary.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 3, 2020 9:52:34 GMT -5
4) We have no idea how Lowder performed academically in his first semester as a freshman. That’s a big leap from high school to college, and perhaps his grades were not up to snuff. Who knows.
5) Based on the very limited information we received from Nelson and Lutsk not really giving us much either, this is all guesswork. Unless we have an insider among us, we are all guessing as to why Lowder was riding the bench.
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Post by dadominate on Jan 3, 2020 9:54:54 GMT -5
a related problem is that one night a player will start and/or play major minutes... the next game he doesn't even get off the bench. it can be hard to play loose and with confidence when this is the case. dado, impressions of seeing Joe P. in person? my impression, which should come as no surprise as a former banger who loves bangers, is that i am absolutely in love with his game. pridgen has an exceptionally quick step, combined with exceptional basketball strength (no popcorn muscles on this kid... he's functionally strong as hell), great footwork, and a nice array of unconventional moves around the hole. at maryland, he scored at will against what is i believe the tallest team in the country. smith, scott, lindo, and the mitchell twins aren't exactly toothpicks either, and despite being 5-6 inches shorter, pridgen was able to bang with them and finish with seeming ease. he (and definitely lowder) have that swagger about them, too. i think darryl morsell, an excellent defender, swatted him from behind after he drew the bigs in the air and he just kind of smiled it off. no intimidation in him at all. he has shown some range at times, too. consistency there could be the missing link from being a truly exceptional/player of the year candidate type player. i suspect he will develop that as it is hard to believe he is only a freshman. he went toe to toe with a great senior in kostecka last night, who is a pretty good defender. the pridgen, lowder, and wade (who is not quite at their level, but promising) trifecta should be really fun to watch and hard to see them not being a winning nucleus.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 3, 2020 10:00:01 GMT -5
With Lowder we have 3 legitimate double-digit scorers on the floor-- Pridgen, Lowder and Butler-- and each becomes better because of the others. If one believes the other starters are one-dimensional players (I do not) it allows Wade/Niego/Faw/ Copeland and Hargis to relax and do what they do best.
Once this 8 man rotation is settled I think players will understand their roles and we can begin to see some growth and meaningful improvement as a team
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Post by dadominate on Jan 3, 2020 10:00:35 GMT -5
I think we need to remind ourselves that they are playing with a roster short 3 scholarship players. If you use up those slots with 3 above average players, everything changes. I hope that 3 years from now Druzi is in the home stretch of a fabulous HC career, and we all look back and give the coach a thumbs up on his strategy to sit him (if that is indeed what has happened). Being in the honeymoon stage, CBN is getting close to 100% of the benefit of the doubt (and as a result, Druzi is getting close to 0%), but I think we must also remember that this is CBN's first rodeo as a head coach. Let's hope it all works out for the best. All this "unselfish" stuff does have me scratching my head a bit, though. I have to assume he refers to things outside of game action (would be great if Dick L. asked him to give an example of unselfishness if CBN continues to use the term in interviews). I don't see where Druzi's playing style is unselfish ON the court - he is clearly a specially talented offensive player (like JP); I want him to have a scoring mentality! While I would not say I am having "fun" watching the games, I do find it very interesting to watch the transformation. IMHO the next big step in this phase is to get MF comfortable in the system; it's a must. AB and CN have my utmost respect for their efforts and sacrifice; and while CN has missed his share of inside shots, he is also starting to mix it up more with defense and rebounding. KC's situation is strange to me (unless I missed something). I know he started the season hurt (in boot), then after playing a bit I thought he had some kind of illness. Is he hurt again or sick? If sick, why would he be on the bench? It would have been nice to have him available last night to spend a few minutes on Kostecka; if nothing else it would have given JP a bit of a breather. I still feel like fatigue played a role in the last 10 minutes of the game. Agree with all of this, especially the bolded.
Just to pile on to the Lowder situation. I think there were a number of factors in play, you can assign percentage weights to them however you want:
1. Lowder's hip wasn't 100%. 2. Lowder's adoption of Nelson's philosophy ("attack and serve", "unselfish", etc) was somehow lacking. 3. (one I haven't seen mentioned yet) If Lowder was playing too selfishly for Nelson's tastes, there's also an implicit indictment of the rest of the team: guys were too content to stand around and watch Lowder, weren't working hard enough to get open/give Lowder an option to be unselfish. Basically, if Lowder being a gunner was a crutch on the offensive end, maybe Nelson saw some benefit in taking him away for a couple of games and forcing the rest of the team to find ways to score without their crutch. Sure, it's not fair to guys like Butler and Lasann in particular to play out of position, but it does seem like some others (Pridgen, Wade, Niego) did step up to fill the void. Now that we're in league play, lesson learned on all sides, and you re-introduce a healthy Lowder to the mix and hopefully get a more balanced, multi-faceted offense out the other side of this experiment.
point 3 is interesting, ray. i hope it was either 1 or 3 and lowder is our point guard the rest of the season. i think we could actually finish middle of the pack in the pl (not a huge accomplishment, but not a total disaster, either) if he is consistently on the court.
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Post by Tom on Jan 3, 2020 10:02:14 GMT -5
Back to back 40 minute games for Wade. Pridgen with a 39 and a 40 in the last two games. I know Coach Nelson is trying to use the horses he has, but I see issues if this is going to become a long term trend. Especially for deep shooters like Wade it is not uncommon for tired legs to cause shots to come short
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Post by Ray on Jan 3, 2020 10:02:19 GMT -5
4) We have no idea how Lowder performed academically in his first semester as a freshman. That’s a big leap from high school to college, and perhaps his grades were not up to snuff. Who knows. 5) Based on the very limited information we received from Nelson and Lutsk not really giving us much either, this is all guesswork. Unless we have an insider among us, we are all guessing as to why Lowder was riding the bench. I think speculating about 4) is something we generally don't want to do on this board. But I did wonder about this question while Lowder was out, and I'm sure I was not alone... whether there was an academic issue, or he was considering a transfer, something along those lines. But I don't think those hold water because: a) he was (IIRC) dressed for each game he didn't play, which wouldn't happen if there was an eligibility question, and b) I can't come up with a scenario where there was an academic/eligibility question last week that would be resolved this week.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 3, 2020 10:03:49 GMT -5
If Lowder was playing too selfishly for Nelson's tastes, there's also an implicit indictment of the rest of the team: guys were too content to stand around and watch Lowder, weren't working hard enough to get open/give Lowder an option to be unselfish. Basically, if Lowder being a gunner was a crutch on the offensive end, maybe Nelson saw some benefit in taking him away for a couple of games and forcing the rest of the team to find ways to score without their crutch.
It's an interesting point. But it is also on Lowder, even as a shoot-first PG, to keep his teammates involved. His ability to score from anywhere on the court means that other guys are going to be in better positions to score, too - he has to recognize and exploit that during the course of a game. As the PG, that's his job To use a probably simplistic football analogy - a team with a good-throwing quarterback opens up with its passing game to set up the running game.
Not to belabor the lessons of "Hoosiers' (which are many) . . . at the end, the best shooter takes the shot, despite the coach's own hesitation to let him do so. But the journey the team has to take to get to that point, the process and discipline they must learn to accept, is what's important.
Let's start with "four passes," and trust the process.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 3, 2020 10:12:15 GMT -5
Given the news Butler's mom posted on Twitter re his strong semester a few days after exams, my guess is all players received their grades prior to Christmas. If any player was concerned about his grades, it would seem those issues appear to be resolved.
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Post by Tom on Jan 3, 2020 10:15:52 GMT -5
With Lowder we have 3 legitimate double-digit scorers on the floor-- Pridgen, Lowder and Butler-- and each becomes better because of the others. If one believes the other starters are one-dimensional players (I do not) it allows Wade/Niego/Faw/ Copeland and Hargis to relax and do what they do best. Once this 8 man rotation is settled I think players will understand their roles and we can begin to see some growth and meaningful improvement as a team 8 man rotation will be easier when we actually have all 8 dressed and available to play
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Post by dadominate on Jan 3, 2020 10:27:22 GMT -5
If Lowder was playing too selfishly for Nelson's tastes, there's also an implicit indictment of the rest of the team: guys were too content to stand around and watch Lowder, weren't working hard enough to get open/give Lowder an option to be unselfish. Basically, if Lowder being a gunner was a crutch on the offensive end, maybe Nelson saw some benefit in taking him away for a couple of games and forcing the rest of the team to find ways to score without their crutch.
It's an interesting point. But it is also on Lowder, even as a shoot-first PG, to keep his teammates involved. His ability to score from anywhere on the court means that other guys are going to be in better positions to score, too - he has to recognize and exploit that during the course of a game. As the PG, that's his job To use a probably simplistic football analogy - a team with a good-throwing quarterback opens up with its passing game to set up the running game.
Not to belabor the lessons of "Hoosiers' (which are many) . . . at the end, the best shooter takes the shot, despite the coach's own hesitation to let him do so. But the journey the team has to take to get to that point, the process and discipline they must learn to accept, is what's important.
Let's start with "four passes," and trust the process.
agree with the point. although in what game was lowder overly selfish? he's also a freshman (shouldn't he be given time to learn on the court?) on a team with limited scoring options. and he can most definitely score. we have had many point guards who had worse shot selection. lowder was the best player on the court against maryland, who literally could not stop him driving to the basket or draining threes. while effective in a backup role last night, i could not help but notice a difference in his game against a much worse opponent. maybe it's rust from not playing, lingering injury, or patience against loyola's zone defense, but he didn't look to penetrate as much. sunday at home against navy should be "interesting", to tap into that adjective once again.
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Post by crosspride on Jan 3, 2020 10:39:15 GMT -5
You don’t know what is going on, but then insinuate it’s just moping in layup lines? And then suggest that playing time shouldn’t be based on effort in practice? Do you think Nelson doesn’t want to win games and play one of his 2 best players? This is a team who, for recent recruiting classes, have had more players kicked off the team and/or expelled than have graduated. If we want that to continue, then simply follow the playing time and discipline approaches you laid out above. By the way, Anythony Thompson, who you’re referring to about moping in games and have constantly criticized on this board, had the respect of all of his teammates and was looked up to as a leader. If Lowder can get to that level, he will and should play every minute. talk about the pot calling the kettle black! your clueless final paragraph is equally insinuating that lowder does not have the respect of his teammates. hypocrisy much? thompson visibly hung his head and did not engage during many timeouts in games. that's an on the court fact, not something that happened behind closed doors, and he did not demonstrate on the court leadership qualities that many of our other players have had over the years. as a coach that type of behavior drove me crazy, and while sometimes it would be tolerated it truly great players, thompson was not one of them. lowder has not demonstrated any of this type of behavior during games and as a freshman is already a better player than thompson was as a senior. i also haven't brought him up by name in some time, but if you choose to live in the past, so be it. the fact is that RIGHT NOW we are a better basketball team with lowder on the court. your animus towards anything having to do with carmody doesn't change that fact. the program needed a change in leadership. we're also 1-13 right now with two of the worst losses in program history. barring any proof of anything to the contrary other than what nelson himself said about lowder being healthy, i question the move of sitting lowder in a league game and having austin butler and clayton lesann running the point last night. it's stupid and proves nothing. 1. Relax. No need for the name calling. It’s Friday! 2. Lowder has been on campus for 6 months and played in <10 games. Per his teammates, not someone watching body language from the stands, Thompson was a leader. Maybe lowder is there already but to borrow your phrase, I’m not plugged in. I trust Nelson and the staff to make the right call. End of story. 3. No animus towards carmody at all, not sure where that came from. Credit to him for playing Thompson and winning the PLC. I do prefer student athletes who graduate and represent Holy Cross well, though. If that’s not something you care about, maybe root for P5 school instead. 4. I’m still waiting for the offense to improve now that Floyd isn’t in there to muck things up!
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 3, 2020 10:57:26 GMT -5
Pridgen is our only player who has a complete game at his position right now. You can’t win at the D1 level with a roster like this.
Lowder is the next closest, but the reality is that he is a shoot-first PG who has work to do on the defensive end at this point. But at least he is only a freshman and I am hopeful that he can get there sooner than later through Nelson’s leadership.
Wade seems to be progressing nicely over this short season so far, but still has a ways to go.
The rest of the roster is severely flawed.
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Post by trimster on Jan 3, 2020 11:11:45 GMT -5
Dave, Your choice of "interesting" to watch is probably a better one than "fun." I stand corrected. Trimster, Your litany of past events was interesting, but unnecessary for me. I watched (and remember) each of the things you cite. Was it some sort of exercise in masochism? I believe you do not enjoy watching this team develop and seeing how Coach Nelson uses the personnel at his disposal. If you had so much difficulty the first time around, are we going to hear about every one of these disappointments each time out? No need to point out HC's poor defense...the scoreboard does that pretty well. As a personal choice, I do believe better days are ahead. I have been an HC fan/supporter for 55 years and I am going to guess I have far fewer than that left. What I don’t enjoy is seeing HC getting beaten far too often for my liking. If you don’t like my posts, don’t read them.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 3, 2020 11:13:20 GMT -5
I have been an HC fan for a bit longer than you. In that spirit I offer you the same advice. Be well.
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Post by possum on Jan 3, 2020 12:48:21 GMT -5
I thought Lowder spent far less time dribbling and trying to create shot opportunities for himself than he did in earlier games. Last night he was decisive when attacking the hoop and otherwise kept the ball moving.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 3, 2020 12:49:33 GMT -5
An excellent positive thought, mm67. Well said.
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