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Post by moose1970 on Sept 13, 2018 16:07:01 GMT -5
i will try to respond as best i can: "You've stated that HC shouldn't play big-time football, and clearly they're not aiming to."When you play a football game v BC, Syracuse, etc you are playing "big time football" (DUH!) " it sounds like you would advocate a move to Division 3 ...or do you think HC can be a competitive D1 football program without scholarships?"
your hypo is incomplete. we can continue playing competitive football v the PL, ivy league, etc. no need to bail out to Div 3! Further, not all D1 teams are the same.i.e. I assume that Army is listed as a D1 school and I could certainly see Coach Chesney bring the team along with time and we should be competitive v Army. I do not see that happening v BC, Syracuse, and other programs like Penn State, ND. Again, a head coach paid $2+ million running a huge program will not allow that to happen. Let's assume that we are competing for a talented football recruit with BC, Syracuse, etc. The argument i hear is that we can tell him that if he comes to HC he can test himself against the best once or twice a year. The big time programs tell him he will compete at the highest level all season. Further, he won't be told that opponents will be limited to the northeast because travel to the west coast etc is too expensive. Today, nothing is "too expensive" for the top D1 programs. The talented football recruit will pick the D1 program every time as they have in the past. also, as a football program tries to become more competitive the pressures to bend and break NCAA rules becomes enormous. In the billion dollar industry called big time college football everyone else is trying to get away with as much as they can. Then why not HC football??? We don't need it! "...is it reasonable to expect a fan base to get as emotionally invested in a game vs. Central Connecticut as a game vs. BC or Syracuse?"
YES, YES and YES! this is what we need. this is what our teams deserve! this is how we can build a successful sports program to continue the proud tradition of HC football. oops, got to go! What did you think of the BC pre-game hype video....specifically the comments made by Gordie , Verrette and other former football players like yourself ?
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 13, 2018 16:19:14 GMT -5
i watched the BC game on my lap top (i think it was ESPN?) i did not see the pre-game hype video. i assume no one in the pre-game hype said "this is not a good idea" ( they would never get a chance to speak) unless there were facts listed in the pre-game hype i am unaware of, it would not chance my thoughts on the matter even if gordie lockbaum et al praised the resumption of the BC rivalry. in fact, gordie has to or else he can forget about doing any more radio for HC football and would harm his business selling insurance in worcester.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 13, 2018 16:26:59 GMT -5
"...we’d have time to ramp up enough to be competitive with BC." "ramp up"? ramp up is a euphemism for big time $$$ HC does not have it and/or willing to spend it. I guess if you consider spending 97 million bucks on a new field house as not having $$, I suppose you're right.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 13, 2018 16:31:03 GMT -5
i was told in a prior post that scheduling more football games v west coast schools (like we did once v st mary's, moraga ca) was out of the question because of expenses. for some reason i just don't think that BC, Syracuse, etc worry about those things.
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Post by crusader12 on Sept 13, 2018 16:44:44 GMT -5
The Moose is loose!!!!!
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 14, 2018 0:05:45 GMT -5
yes, you can say they were "dark times" but i do have my fair share of cherished memories playing football for HC. we did not win many games (in fact none in '69 due to hepatitis) and probably set some dubious record by having 3 different head coaches during my 4 years. (there is a lot more to it which will not be said here) but i played with some wonderful guys. my teammates meant everything to me and still do. it was well worth it despite the "dark times". so much for my analysis (but you did bring it up). I truly believe that HC football is going in the wrong direction scheduling major football programs like BC, Syracuse, etc. I suspect AD Nathan Pine is behind this push with support from some of the alumni (I'm not one of them). HC has a great and proud football tradition. We do not need bogus "games" with BC and Syracuse to continue that into the future. There are many schools in New England and the Northeast with strong football programs that we can schedule and play competitively. Several years ago we even played St Mary's in Moraga, Ca which a great trip/experience for players and coaches. GO 'SADERS With all due respect, I don't believe you are putting the advancement of the program in the right context. A loss to BC is not a regression for the program. This is about recruiting. I hate to break the news to you, but top recruits in FL, TX, OH, CA, etc. are not clamoring for a Patriot offer. Recruits want to play in the P5. When they don't get recruited in the P5, they are either upset and looking to prove themselves or will start to look at academic opportunities that provide the best football experience, or both. The scheduling of big programs attracts recruits who want to prove they belong at the next level. If we want to return to IAA glory, we need these games to bring in the best recruits. The goal is win a FCS championship someday. To get there, we need the best players. Not to mention, the games also provide some influx of cash. As the old adage goes, "no bucks, no buck rogers." No big games = less impressive recruits. With big games, you get the guys that want a great education, but want the opportunity to play against the top programs to show their skills.
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Post by moose1970 on Sept 14, 2018 1:59:04 GMT -5
first, i apologize for not having responded to your post directed to me earlier but my dance card has been full.
let me say this, one common theme i am hearing here is that HC derives "financial benefits from playing BC, etc. i understand that HC has to first increase the # of football NCAA grants or else BC, etc will not play us since the game won't count for their bowl eligibility. so HC spends more $ on football NCAA grants to get to the big pay day? Does this reduce available NCAA grants from the basketball, baseball, track, etc programs at HC? If so, what do those HC student athletes think of the "win/win" situation of playing BC in football?
The HC male student body is now less than 1,500. When we increase football NCAA grants so BC will play us does that also reduce revenues received from tuition paying male students who are turned away to make room for the extra football NCAA grant students ?
Increasing football NCAA grants is just the start of the additional expenses. I know that we need to increase expenses for our recruiting program to fill the extra positions on the football team. Do we also need to increase the size of our coaching staff and trainers?
There may very well be other added expenses of which I am not aware. I question the financial benefit, if any, to HC playing the once/yr "big game".
You also state that "top recruits...are not clamoring for a Patriot offer" True enough. I thought that the main reason to play the once/yr big game is to start to attract at least some top recruits who will help to turn around HC's recent W/L record?
With due respect, your remaining comments appear to repeat the mantra of other crossroad posts that reviving the HC v BC/Syracuse rivalries is a cure all for HC football. I think that's just wishful thinking.
I also think it important to give Coach Chesney a chance to adjust and succeed at the PL level. Of course he has to say that playing BC/Syracuse is great for the football program, etc but we are making his job extra difficult.
pax,
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Post by unhfan on Sept 14, 2018 2:48:37 GMT -5
I’ve never understood that playing these money games helps recruiting. I don’t get how playing one FBS game and getting destroyed helps recruiting, or morale of the team. Usually in these games the kids are shown why their not at the level of their opponent not sure how that helps.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 14, 2018 6:17:36 GMT -5
Moose, you have certainly started fast out of the gate on Crossports! Crossports is an opinion board, of course, and yours and your perspective is appreciated. As to whether or not Holy Cross derives a greater benefit over the expense/cost, consider dropping either/both AD, Nate Pine or president, Fr. Boroughs a note or email expressing your views and perhaps asking what their thinking is about playing BC and/or other Bowl eligible teams in "pay games." These certainly are not black/white, yes/no easy decisions because your points are well taken. Presumably they believe the cost outweighs the benefit or we wouldn't be playing them. I was up to Holy Cross Wednesday night for the "Senior/Alumni Networking Event" and while I did not initiate this subject with the senior students or alums, I can tell you that many in both categories did go and no one expressed any reservations about the game despite the one-sided score. Instead, there were expressions of much enthusiasm about the pride and spirit of our alma mater, which is much needed right now with all the recent controversies. Those controversies were never anticipated when this game was scheduled but I know when Dick Regan scheduled this game, the hoped for enhanced school spirit was a factor.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 14, 2018 6:31:00 GMT -5
I’ve never understood that playing these money games helps recruiting. I don’t get how playing one FBS game and getting destroyed helps recruiting, or morale of the team. Usually in these games the kids are shown why their not at the level of their opponent not sure how that helps. A middling PL v a good ACC is a predictable disaster. Of course the one-side debacle does not help with recruiting - although others say otherwise.
Clearly the announcers felt sorry for us during the game and BC's coach did what he could by yanking his stars mid-way thru the 1st quarter. And still dominated us with 2nd and 3rd stringers. I don't see how that puts our FB program in a good light.
No doubt the strongest team in the PL, Colgate, would have been decimated in similar fashion. (So if our goal is to be the strongest program in the PL and we eventually reach that goal, we are still not narrowing the gap with BC...if anybody's farfetched aim is to narrow the gap with BC and play them competitively.)
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 14, 2018 7:24:18 GMT -5
There is a difference between "closing the gap" and "winning." It may be some time (if ever) before HC could win such a game, but I believe that HC will absolutely close the gap...(and is already starting to). (I wonder how much the 41 points that Wake Forest gave up to BC yesterday will hurt their recruiting?)
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 14, 2018 7:32:53 GMT -5
All I know is that with almost 400 posts and over 12,000 view, this is one of the most popular topics on Crossports. While the 2019 recruiting thread has greater numbers, that covers many, many months and almost by definition has to have more posts for all the potential recruits.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 14, 2018 8:22:27 GMT -5
As far as whether such games help recruiting I have to ask what the players say. We have in a post above some confirmation that Teddy Capsis-pretty good player--had been looking forward to the game since he came on campus. Have we not heard the same from others? Did Teddy know about the game while being recruited? On the other hand, do any posters believe that any recruits said to themselves "I was ready to sign with Holy Cross until I found out the team would be playing bc, Syracuse, and Army".....
Our society is now heavily influenced by celebrity and marquee events---pay games may have greater cachet there than another FCS opponent game
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 14, 2018 9:02:58 GMT -5
You express your opinion well. But: 1. I have not seen anyone (other than you) say that players would come to HC to be "annihilated" by anyone. (straw man argument?) 2. If the players do not feel they were humiliated, this makes no sense. HC lost to a better team, but was anyone "destroyed?" I don't think so. 3. There were many alums in the stands for that game who would disagree with you. And, as an alum, I know I do. Are my "suspicions" as valid as yours? That quote you used is a nice summary for your argument (leave it to HC professors): It may be logical to you, but it may also be incorrect.
One question. Since we are playing Navy already on a future schedule, why do you think HC did not try to schedule Army?
GO CROSS!
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Post by hcpride on Sept 14, 2018 9:05:34 GMT -5
There is a difference between "closing the gap" and "winning." It may be some time (if ever) before HC could win such a game, but I believe that HC will absolutely close the gap...(and is already starting to). (I wonder how much the 41 points that Wake Forest gave up to BC yesterday will hurt their recruiting?) Wake Forest was tied at halftime and lost by 7....assuming you are serious, I don't see that as something that will hurt their recruiting (now if they are humiliated by another team they have no business even playing, that would be another story altogether)
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 14, 2018 9:14:09 GMT -5
I wish this thread would die. But as moose1970 apparently does not want it to and mm67 wants "facts" and not "assertions," here is my attempt at the former (based mostly on the latter): Fact: More people were aware of the BC-HC than any other HC game since God knows when. That is good. Evidence: Obvious. Fact: I would rather watch HC play a P5 team than any other game on the scedhule - win or loss. - Evidence: I undertook a deep examination of my mind on Sept. 14, 2018. Fact: Players want to play in these games. Evidence: Multiple interviews, articles, etc. Fact: Recruits want to play in these games. Evidence: They are not pussies; if they were, we don't want them as recruits/commitments/players. I say we play anybody that gets us more exposure - I live in a different region than NE; this was the first week since the Men's BB run, that people have come up to me and mentioned a HC Game.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 14, 2018 9:15:25 GMT -5
I was not being serious - my emoji was misplaced, but I corrected that. Some here have fixated on the points allowed by HC.Yes, Wake did make the score closer with their last TD. In any case, I do not believe Wake recruiting will be hurt in any way by giving up 41 points and I do not believe the final score of our game will hurt HC recruiting. Sorry if my point was not clear.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 14, 2018 9:15:46 GMT -5
Mm67–
What’s the phrase attorneys use for some objections: “assuming facts not in evidence”? I think you have provided multiple examples....
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Post by hcpride on Sept 14, 2018 9:23:31 GMT -5
I wish this thread would die. But as moose1970 apparently does not want it to and mm67 wants "facts" and not "assertions," here is my attempt at the former (based mostly on the latter): Fact: More people were aware of the BC-HC than any other HC game since God knows when. That is good. Evidence: Obvious. Fact: I would rather watch HC play a P5 team than any other game on the scedhule - win or loss. - Evidence: I undertook a deep examination of my mind on Sept. 14, 2018. Fact: Players want to play in these games. Evidence: Multiple interviews, articles, etc. Fact: Recruits want to play in these games. Evidence: They are not pussies; if they were, we don't want them as recruits/commitments/players. I say we play anybody that gets us more exposure - I live in a different region than NE; this was the first week since the Men's BB run, that people have come up to me and mentioned a HC Game. A money game v Alabama w/national exposure? I'd say no.
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 14, 2018 9:27:46 GMT -5
I wish this thread would die. But as moose1970 apparently does not want it to and mm67 wants "facts" and not "assertions," here is my attempt at the former (based mostly on the latter): Fact: More people were aware of the BC-HC than any other HC game since God knows when. That is good. Evidence: Obvious. Fact: I would rather watch HC play a P5 team than any other game on the scedhule - win or loss. - Evidence: I undertook a deep examination of my mind on Sept. 14, 2018. Fact: Players want to play in these games. Evidence: Multiple interviews, articles, etc. Fact: Recruits want to play in these games. Evidence: They are not pussies; if they were, we don't want them as recruits/commitments/players. I say we play anybody that gets us more exposure - I live in a different region than NE; this was the first week since the Men's BB run, that people have come up to me and mentioned a HC Game. A money game v Alabama w/national exposure? I'd say no. I would say go for it. That would be awesome. I would also take Ole Miss for the tailgate. How about UM for anniversary celebration of 46 OB? Obviously, playing BC or Syracuse makes more sense from a geographic and historical standpoint.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 14, 2018 9:33:54 GMT -5
I was not being serious - my emoji was misplaced, but I corrected that. Some here have fixated on the points allowed by HC.... Without the benching of the BC stars seven minutes into the 1st quarter v HC they could have put a 100 on us. Talented BC QB Anthony Brown was yanked so fast in the middle of the first quarter he didn't get to throw a TD,,,then threw for 5 v a far superior Wake Forest. Many of us are aware the score would have been much worse than the 62-14 were it not for Addazio's sportsmanship (AKA mercy).
I'd hate to see a repeat of that game - since there are alternative matchups. Others, perhaps, would like to see us play them again.
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Post by Tom on Sept 14, 2018 9:35:14 GMT -5
I’ve never understood that playing these money games helps recruiting. I don’t get how playing one FBS game and getting destroyed helps recruiting, or morale of the team. Usually in these games the kids are shown why their not at the level of their opponent not sure how that helps. I can't speak for football, however, when the basketball team faces a P5 opponent, it is not uncommon for the guys to use a photo for a social media profile. Apparently there is some degree of pride in boasting that "Hey, I played at (insert P% school here)"
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Post by hcpride on Sept 14, 2018 9:42:23 GMT -5
A money game v Alabama w/national exposure? I'd say no. I would say go for it. That would be awesome. I would also take Ole Miss for the tailgate. How about UM for anniversary celebration of 46 OB? Obviously, playing BC or Syracuse makes more sense from a geographic and historical standpoint. I'd say the injury potential and humiliation potential of a PL FCS team playing a P-5 team makes the matchup a bad idea as a threshold matter. No matter the money (if any) or national exposure.
(I can watch entertaining and competitive Alabama, Ole Miss and UM games without bringing HC into the mix.)
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 14, 2018 9:50:20 GMT -5
The only "humiliation" I see in FBS/FCS matchups comes when the FCS team wins (check the article posted by Moose) or when the FCS team clearly stops trying. Neither happened at BC, so I am not sure why people keep using that word. Plus, EVERY football game has injury potential and HC seemed to come through with three players injured - hopefully not too seriously. That is not much different than some FCS games. Remember when HC lost one of our biggest linemen for the season to a cutback block by a Georgetown athlete?
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Post by inhocsigno on Sept 14, 2018 10:28:46 GMT -5
I would say go for it. That would be awesome. I would also take Ole Miss for the tailgate. How about UM for anniversary celebration of 46 OB? Obviously, playing BC or Syracuse makes more sense from a geographic and historical standpoint. I'd say the injury potential and humiliation potential of a PL FCS team playing a P-5 team makes the matchup a bad idea as a threshold matter. No matter the money (if any) or national exposure.
(I can watch entertaining and competitive Alabama, Ole Miss and UM games without bringing HC into the mix.)
Do you really believe that there is an increased injury risk playing BC or any other P5 team over any other game?
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