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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 12:51:57 GMT -5
beersearch, there is no optimal time. But no reputable manager/administrator makes a decision to dismiss the head of a key program, without a plan B, leading to a successor in short order.
But let's assume that CTG was fired, and there is no heir-apparent. Immediately, the remainder of the coaching staff are uncertain about their futures; recruits don't know who will be coaching the team and hesitate about committing; and other schools are willing to poach, either staff or players.
In the past, when a head coach has left Holy Cross, ADNP immediately announces a nation-wide search for a successor. That can take weeks to months. In the meantime, as the clock ticks, uncertainty reigns in football at a critical time. Its my belief that for whatever reason, ADNP had no Plan B this year, but will have one next year. And part of a Plan B is for ADNP to squirrel away enough money in next year's budget to pay for a successor, if that turns out to be the case. The HC budget is very, very tight this current year.
One need look no further than the Jesuit institution just down the 'Pike a bit. BC abruptly fires Jags because he had the temerity to interview for a NFL coaching position. In his place, they hire Spaz as interim head coach, and then head coach. (Spaz had earlier been an interim head coach at BC.) Program goes downhill under Spaz, so after a search. BC hires Addazio, based on his two years as head coach at Temple with an inherited program. One need only look at BC's ACC record over the past two seasons to know Addazio is being marched out onto the plank. The head coach position at a Power Five school should be much sought after, it certainly pays enough, but BC has had little success in filling it. _______________________________ I will add that ADNP's mentor, the AD at UMd, saw his football team lose by 56 two weeks ago, and by 59 last week at home. Maybe UMd is willing to unload a coach on HC.
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Post by deep Purple on Nov 18, 2016 12:53:51 GMT -5
I wonder if the DC is going to be returning?
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Post by matunuck on Nov 18, 2016 12:56:01 GMT -5
Why the double standard with TG compared to other coaches who've been let go?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 12:58:03 GMT -5
Why the double standard with TG compared to other coaches who've been let go? Perhaps it's not a double standard if TG is a good coach and the others who were let go were/are not?
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Post by beerseach on Nov 18, 2016 13:34:17 GMT -5
beersearch, there is no optimal time. But no reputable manager/administrator makes a decision to dismiss the head of a key program, without a plan B, leading to a successor in short order. But let's assume that CTG was fired, and there is no heir-apparent. Immediately, the remainder of the coaching staff are uncertain about their futures; recruits don't know who will be coaching the team and hesitate about committing; and other schools are willing to poach, either staff or players. In the past, when a head coach has left Holy Cross, ADNP immediately announces a nation-wide search for a successor. That can take weeks to months. In the meantime, as the clock ticks, uncertainty reigns in football at a critical time. Its my belief that for whatever reason, ADNP had no Plan B this year, but will have one next year. And part of a Plan B is for ADNP to squirrel away enough money in next year's budget to pay for a successor, if that turns out to be the case. The HC budget is very, very tight this current year. One need look no further than the Jesuit institution just down the 'Pike a bit. BC abruptly fires Jags because he had the temerity to interview for a NFL coaching position. In his place, they hire Spaz as interim head coach, and then head coach. (Spaz had earlier been an interim head coach at BC.) Program goes downhill under Spaz, so after a search. BC hires Addazio, based on his two years as head coach at Temple with an inherited program. One need only look at BC's ACC record over the past two seasons to know Addazio is being marched out onto the plank. The head coach position at a Power Five school should be much sought after, it certainly pays enough, but BC has had little success in filling it. _______________________________ I will add that ADNP's mentor, the AD at UMd, saw his football team lose by 56 two weeks ago, and by 59 last week at home. Maybe UMd is willing to unload a coach on HC. Pakachoag, I understand your point. I can point to other situations were it did work. There is no perfect formula in replacing a head coach especially a good guy like Tom Gilmore. I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be at least ONE good candidate that would apply for the job and quite frankly if I am an AD and I have that kind of confidence in my school then yes you are right lets just stay status quo. I'm not that kind of guy. If I want a first class program then I am going to act that way as well. I can't be afraid to be successful. Or at least take the chance to be successful. If you are going to make this move next year anyway which I think will happen, then do it now! Based on the lack of success with BC in all sports, I wouldn't use them as anything other than what NOT to do. Lets move on and go nationwide and hire a coach a few weeks before signing day. If its reported that a few 5th year players are in fact returning, then you have a piece of a decent recruiting class already including a team captain and QB. I would rather look at what Holy Cross has to offer as an institution rather than what it doesn't. Holy Cross is a special place and should be easily sold that way...
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 13:45:50 GMT -5
beersearch, IMO, HC doesn't have the money this year to do what you suggest. Which sort of ends the discussion right there.
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Post by sader81 on Nov 18, 2016 13:46:03 GMT -5
I can understand, given the injuries, giving Coach another year. However, that is not the entire problem as I see it. He is a tough guy to work for and that is not easily fixed. Good luck to the team, but I am not optimistic.
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Post by matunuck on Nov 18, 2016 13:50:02 GMT -5
Why the double standard with TG compared to other coaches who've been let go? Perhaps it's not a double standard if TG is a good coach and the others who were let go were/are not? True, for those who believe he is the right fit for us moving forward. My guess, though, is that he has very strong alum advocates while the others didn't.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 13:52:07 GMT -5
beersearch, there is no optimal time. But no reputable manager/administrator makes a decision to dismiss the head of a key program, without a plan B, leading to a successor in short order. But let's assume that CTG was fired, and there is no heir-apparent. Immediately, the remainder of the coaching staff are uncertain about their futures; recruits don't know who will be coaching the team and hesitate about committing; and other schools are willing to poach, either staff or players. In the past, when a head coach has left Holy Cross, ADNP immediately announces a nation-wide search for a successor. That can take weeks to months. In the meantime, as the clock ticks, uncertainty reigns in football at a critical time. Its my belief that for whatever reason, ADNP had no Plan B this year, but will have one next year. And part of a Plan B is for ADNP to squirrel away enough money in next year's budget to pay for a successor, if that turns out to be the case. The HC budget is very, very tight this current year. One need look no further than the Jesuit institution just down the 'Pike a bit. BC abruptly fires Jags because he had the temerity to interview for a NFL coaching position. In his place, they hire Spaz as interim head coach, and then head coach. (Spaz had earlier been an interim head coach at BC.) Program goes downhill under Spaz, so after a search. BC hires Addazio, based on his two years as head coach at Temple with an inherited program. One need only look at BC's ACC record over the past two seasons to know Addazio is being marched out onto the plank. The head coach position at a Power Five school should be much sought after, it certainly pays enough, but BC has had little success in filling it. _______________________________ I will add that ADNP's mentor, the AD at UMd, saw his football team lose by 56 two weeks ago, and by 59 last week at home. Maybe UMd is willing to unload a coach on HC. Lets move on and go nationwide and hire a coach a few weeks before signing day. If its reported that a few 5th year players are in fact returning, then you have a piece of a decent recruiting class already including a team captain and QB. I would rather look at what Holy Cross has to offer as an institution rather than what it doesn't. Holy Cross is a special place and should be easily sold that way... You say "nationwide" as if it means there are coaches across the country who (a) would be interested and (b) would be successful. There is a very small population of individuals who can be successful football coaches at HC AND who would be interested in the job. One individual who has had success at HC is Tom Gilmore, and it appears that Nate Pine thinks he can be successful again. Which is saying something considering how antsy Pine would be to hire his own football coach. Army, led by Pine's mentor, Kevin Anderson, had a " nationwide" football coaching search a few years ago and hired Rich Ellerson from Cal Poly. He lasted five years with a 20-41 record, including 3-9. 2-10. 3-9 his last three years. Just because we fire TG and open up a " nationwide" search doesn't mean we're going to be getting interest from coordinators in the Pac-12 or Big 10, or attracting top assistants from North Dakota State, Eastern Washington or Sam Houston State, who would be a deer in headlights trying to recruit to the Patriot League.
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Post by gks on Nov 18, 2016 13:55:47 GMT -5
I don't think the HC job is as desirable as many think. Football coaches want to win. They don't want to deal with the BS from admissions and leaving for away games Friday at 5:30pm and not flying to Georgetown.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 13:55:53 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread.
2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13.
Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham
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Post by ts1970 on Nov 18, 2016 13:59:55 GMT -5
How did HC ever manage to beat Harvard this season? Even had HC won that close game with Bucknell, FB team still would be under .500 with a losing season at 5-6. Now I can only hope things improve a lot next season with the same staff returning along with PP and Gabe G. I received that e-mail as well from CTG and NP.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 14:03:31 GMT -5
bringbackcaro, that some of those who would push CTG out can't come up with any credible names as a successor is an indication that they haven't thought through the entire succession.
There was a day on the old board when there was great consternation that CTG was headed to Yale as head coach.
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Post by sarasota on Nov 18, 2016 14:07:54 GMT -5
The first season for a new coach is always tough. So ask yourself.....which season was the smartest season to bite the bullet, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020? Clearly, 2017. Acquiring a good coach requires only money. The current situation of our fball program is not normal for only ONE reason.....there is a significant upgrade in competition looming soon. ADNP's decision is short sighted. I cannot believe money is the fly in the ointment. It's not rational to invest the money HC has in facilities, etc. and competition upgrade and then chintz on the cost for coaching. I hate to think evil....but maybe ADNP knows he won't be here in 2018, in which case a successful 2017 (by playing PP, etc.) looks good on his resume.
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Post by sarasota on Nov 18, 2016 14:10:14 GMT -5
PP- I don't get paid the big bucks to find a new coach. Somebody else does.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 18, 2016 14:11:50 GMT -5
a successful 2017 (by playing PP, etc.) looks good on his resume. No duh. Think about this for a second. You're advocating punting the entire 2017 season to set up future seasons, and we don't even know how those will turn out. Name one example, in the history of college sports, where a coach has benched a team's best player in order to ostensibly be better prepared for the following season.
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Post by sarasota on Nov 18, 2016 14:13:25 GMT -5
Babe Ruth.....and it's done in baseball ALL THE TIME. No different in other sports.
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Post by beerseach on Nov 18, 2016 14:18:52 GMT -5
Lets move on and go nationwide and hire a coach a few weeks before signing day. If its reported that a few 5th year players are in fact returning, then you have a piece of a decent recruiting class already including a team captain and QB. I would rather look at what Holy Cross has to offer as an institution rather than what it doesn't. Holy Cross is a special place and should be easily sold that way... You say "nationwide" as if it means there are coaches across the country who (a) would be interested and (b) would be successful. There is a very small population of individuals who can be successful football coaches at HC AND who would be interested in the job. One individual who has had success at HC is Tom Gilmore, and it appears that Nate Pine thinks he can be successful again. Which is saying something considering how antsy Pine would be to hire his own football coach. Army, led by Pine's mentor, Kevin Anderson, had a " nationwide" football coaching search a few years ago and hired Rich Ellerson from Cal Poly. He lasted five years with a 20-41 record, including 3-9. 2-10. 3-9 his last three years. Just because we fire TG and open up a " nationwide" search doesn't mean we're going to be getting interest from coordinators in the Pac-12 or Big 10, or attracting top assistants from North Dakota State, Eastern Washington or Sam Houston State, who would be a deer in headlights trying to recruit to the Patriot League. You ABSOLUTELY take the chance that the coach you hire may not be better than the one you have. But if I am an AD and I ask myself does this football program have the chance to continue to grow or has this current head coach reached his peak and taken this program as far as it can go, I have to say no and try and go out and make my program better. I'm not going to accept mediocrity. Seems a lot of you are glass half empty type of dudes. My passion and attitude would go a long way in determining my actions. If I am an AD and I have the attitude you guys have then yes lets keep it the way it is and go .500 at best every year. If all accounts are true in terms of the buyout that I have heard, then there has been a Plan B in place for quite sometime. Based on the letter, it appears tome the programs hopes are pinned on Pujals shoulders. If anyone thinks Holy Cross was going to win more than 6 games this year WITH Peter healthy, they are wrong.... Winners make things happen, loser let things happen....
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Post by crusader12 on Nov 18, 2016 14:23:07 GMT -5
I would like to see HCTG call the defense. He is a defensive coach and this was our biggest issue in 2016 IMO. Go all in on HCTG let the DC go, then evaluate at end of 2017.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 14:43:18 GMT -5
The first season for a new coach is always tough. So ask yourself.....which season was the smartest season to bite the bullet, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020? Clearly, 2017. Acquiring a good coach requires only money. The current situation of our fball program is not normal for only ONE reason..... there is a significant upgrade in competition looming soon. ADNP's decision is short sighted. I cannot believe money is the fly in the ointment. It's not rational to invest the money HC has in facilities, etc. and competition upgrade and then chintz on the cost for coaching. I hate to think evil....but maybe ADNP knows he won't be here in 2018, in which case a successful 2017 (by playing PP, etc.) looks good on his resume. The significant upgrade is for one game per year. People are grossly exaggerating any type of negative impact getting blown out once per year by a 1-A school, compared to the tremendous upside of bringing HC alums and fans from all over together for a game. For example, 99% of the people who were in New York City last weekend had an amazing experience, regardless of the outcome of the Fordham game. When improvements are made,people will get into the games. But experiences like the one in New York City last weekend, and the ones in Boston in 2018 and 2020 go far beyond the scoreboard.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 14:45:55 GMT -5
You say "nationwide" as if it means there are coaches across the country who (a) would be interested and (b) would be successful. There is a very small population of individuals who can be successful football coaches at HC AND who would be interested in the job. One individual who has had success at HC is Tom Gilmore, and it appears that Nate Pine thinks he can be successful again. Which is saying something considering how antsy Pine would be to hire his own football coach. Army, led by Pine's mentor, Kevin Anderson, had a " nationwide" football coaching search a few years ago and hired Rich Ellerson from Cal Poly. He lasted five years with a 20-41 record, including 3-9. 2-10. 3-9 his last three years. Just because we fire TG and open up a " nationwide" search doesn't mean we're going to be getting interest from coordinators in the Pac-12 or Big 10, or attracting top assistants from North Dakota State, Eastern Washington or Sam Houston State, who would be a deer in headlights trying to recruit to the Patriot League. You ABSOLUTELY take the chance that the coach you hire may not be better than the one you have. But if I am an AD and I ask myself does this football program have the chance to continue to grow or has this current head coach reached his peak and taken this program as far as it can go, I have to say no and try and go out and make my program better. I'm not going to accept mediocrity. Seems a lot of you are glass half empty type of dudes. My passion and attitude would go a long way in determining my actions. If I am an AD and I have the attitude you guys have then yes lets keep it the way it is and go .500 at best every year. If all accounts are true in terms of the buyout that I have heard, then there has been a Plan B in place for quite sometime. Based on the letter, it appears tome the programs hopes are pinned on Pujals shoulders. If anyone thinks Holy Cross was going to win more than 6 games this year WITH Peter healthy, they are wrong.... Winners make things happen, loser let things happen.... You make some fair points, but I would argue that we reached a peak under Gilmore when we went 42-25 over 6 seasons from 2006-2011, and the decline in the last few years was due to multiple factors (lack of scholarships, lack of support, coaching, facilities, etc), but it's not unreasonable to think that Gilmore can bring us back to where we were during those years, and then bust through that ceiling and exceed those levels.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 15:07:34 GMT -5
Joe: I din't know what it takes to beat reality into some of these guys ? We play 10 games against 1-AA schools next year. If we go 7-3, with losses to UNH, Dartmouth, and one PL game, and compete for a PL Championship, what more could you want? I'm a little bit amazed at the people who are stepping away from reality of the deep hole our program was in after the lack of any type of support from the school for a long time, the delay in the PL allowing scholarships, and then the delay in HC full funding their scholarships. It's not going to be turned back around overnight. The last couple years have been a big disappointment, but it does not mean that TG is as clueless as some act like he is, and I have yet to see any type of list of potential (REALISTIC) candidates that would be a step up from TG's decades of experience at our level. Also, if it was a 50/50 decision on whether to keep TG around for another season or not, you have to think that Nate Pine would rather get rid of him so that he could hire his own coach and check off the "Hired a Football Coach" box on his resume. The fact that he signed him to an extension last year (which likely had some type of clauses included that we don't know about), and then retained him again this year indicates that he sees something in TG that makes him believe he can turn things around. Pine is trying to get out of Worcester as soon as he can, and to do that he needs successful teams on the field. He's not going to be delaying having a winning football program any longer than absolutely necessary. 1. We play 10 games against 1-AA schools next year. If we go 7-3, with losses to UNH, Dartmouth, and one PL game, and compete for a PL Championship, what more could you want? That would be great. Why would this happen? 2. I'm a little bit amazed at the people who are stepping away from reality of the deep hole our program was in after the lack of any type of support from the school for a long time, the delay in the PL allowing scholarships, and then the delay in HC full funding their scholarships. It's not going to be turned back around overnight. The last couple years have been a big disappointment, . . . It's been 4 years of full scholarships players and we're getting worse by the year. 3. . . but it does not mean that TG is as clueless as some act like he is, and I have yet to see any type of list of potential (REALISTIC) candidates that would be a step up from TG's decades of experience at our level. Unsubstantiated. There could be myriad, but how would casual fans such ourselves ever know about that? People get paid nicely at HC to figure this out. And many posters on this board contribute money to help. 4. Also, if it was a 50/50 decision on whether to keep TG around for another season or not, you have to think that Nate Pine would rather get rid of him so that he could hire his own coach and check off the "Hired a Football Coach" box on his resume. No. 5. The fact that he signed him to an extension last year (which likely had some type of clauses included that we don't know about), and then retained him again this year indicates that he sees something in TG that makes him believe he can turn things around. I hope so. 6. Pine is trying to get out of Worcester as soon as he can Totally unsubstantiated and not likely not true. 7. . . . and to do that he needs successful teams on the field. He's not going to be delaying having a winning football program any longer than absolutely necessary. If not he'll get his wish on number 6 above.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 18, 2016 15:08:18 GMT -5
Statements like #6 seem bizarre...perhaps an example of "wishful thinking." It seems that some on our board believe a priority for every HC coach is to coach somewhere else.
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Post by realism on Nov 18, 2016 15:08:21 GMT -5
PP wrote: "My belief is that ADNP, whose Rolodex is surely the largest in the PL, ......." You're just plain wrong! And making it up, without sourcing, as need be !! I think, perhaps because ADDR was such a pathetic AD and served without institutional support, that this board has really over-estimated ADNP's credentials, connections and potential to right a sinking ship. And the myth further assumes ADNP has a blank checkbook no less., You want to talk about AD credentials, respect, and who in the PL has cred and national connections, check out two PL home grown student-athletes, who are stars on the national collegiate athletic administrator's scene, Lehigh's AD, Dr. Joe Sterrett and Colgate's AD Vicky Chun. ADNP is known nationally, if he's known at all, as a very young "hired gun-day laborer" who's way over his head. Lehigh's Joe Sterrett www.lehighsports.com/sports/2013/7/18/GEN_0718132246.aspx?id=288Colgate's Vicky Chun www.gocolgateraiders.com/staff.aspx?staff=5
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wstruz71
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 82
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Post by wstruz71 on Nov 18, 2016 15:08:42 GMT -5
How did HC ever manage to beat Harvard this season? Even had HC won that close game with Bucknell, FB team still would be under .500 with a losing season at 5-6. Now I can only hope things improve a lot next season with the same staff returning along with PP and Gabe G. I received that e-mail as well from CTG and NP. Gabe G. is returning for a fifth year? If I recall, every year Gabe has played, he plays a few games, gets injured, and is done for the season. If Gabe comes back, I bet it'll be the same thing.
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