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Post by HC92 on Nov 18, 2016 15:29:47 GMT -5
How did HC ever manage to beat Harvard this season? Even had HC won that close game with Bucknell, FB team still would be under .500 with a losing season at 5-6. Now I can only hope things improve a lot next season with the same staff returning along with PP and Gabe G. I received that e-mail as well from CTG and NP. Gabe G. is returning for a fifth year? If I recall, every year Gabe has played, he plays a few games, gets injured, and is done for the season. If Gabe comes back, I bet it'll be the same thing. I thought someone told me Guild is not coming back. Can an insider confirm or deny that he is coming back?
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Post by dharry13 on Nov 18, 2016 15:31:36 GMT -5
I'm in complete agreement with HC92 on this one. Epic Fail. It's time to rip the Band-Aid off. No doubt Gilmore did well at restoring winning ways a few years ago but he's had his chance with 4 year scholarship and he didn't deliver - plain and simple. Too many halftime leads and second half losses where they didn't adjust; too many times the Defense has failed to come up with big stops and in general the Defense hasn't improved.
Time to get new blood in here with someone who can recruit much better in anticipation of 5-6 D1A games on the schedule over the next 5 years. Complete disaster.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 18, 2016 15:36:36 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread. 2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13. Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham 31-48 over the last seven seasons. There can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Can't play defense. Can't run the football. Can't manage the game. Can't make adjustments. FOR THIRTEEN SEASONS! I hope CTG sends at least half of his paycheck to Dom, his classmates and the assistant coaches those years because they created this never-ending hope that he might be a competent head coach. He is not.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 18, 2016 15:48:49 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread. 2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13. Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham I hope CTG sends at least half of his paycheck to Dom, his classmates and the assistant coaches those years because they created this never-ending hope that he might be a competent head coach. He is not. He recruited and coached Dom and his classmates. He hired those assistants. We had a really good run for a good chunk of his career at HC. Does that not count for anything? Listen, I wouldn't have objected if NP made a move here because the results clearly haven't been there since 2012, but clearly NP believes there are other issues contributing to HC's shortcomings. TG is part of that, but perhaps there are larger factors at play.
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Post by hc811215 on Nov 18, 2016 15:53:53 GMT -5
Apparently awful, awful decision. Only makes sense if ADNP has someone in mind who will be available next year and is not available this year. He may want to spend money to get a real coach in 2018 and needs to wait a year so as not to double pay for 2017. I just feel terrible for the players, students, and fans who have to endure another losing year under CTG.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 15:54:10 GMT -5
"He recruited and coached Dom and his classmates. He hired those assistants. We had a really good run for a good chunk of his career at HC. Does that not count for anything?"
One would argue that it counts for a lot - like an additional 6 seasons to keep coaching. Not saying this is my perspective, per se, but that might be the answer you get from some on this board.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 18, 2016 16:03:10 GMT -5
I hope CTG sends at least half of his paycheck to Dom, his classmates and the assistant coaches those years because they created this never-ending hope that he might be a competent head coach. He is not. He recruited and coached Dom and his classmates. He hired those assistants. We had a really good run for a good chunk of his career at HC. Does that not count for anything? Listen, I wouldn't have objected if NP made a move here because the results clearly haven't been there since 2012, but clearly NP believes there are other issues contributing to HC's shortcomings. TG is part of that, but perhaps there are larger factors at play. Sure he gets credit. But the last seven years show that the success we had was due to the talents of those individuals rather than his own talent. Kudos to him for bringing them to HC. Now it's time to move on.
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Post by beerseach on Nov 18, 2016 16:03:14 GMT -5
You make some fair points, but I would argue that we reached a peak under Gilmore when we went 42-25 over 6 seasons from 2006-2011, and the decline in the last few years was due to multiple factors (lack of scholarships, lack of support, coaching, facilities, etc), but it's not unreasonable to think that Gilmore can bring us back to where we were during those years, and then bust through that ceiling and exceed those levels. After 4 years of mediocrity, I do not see Coach Gilmore reversing course and getting 8-9 wins a year again. A season or two of it? Maybe, but what I saw as a team that quit playing hard. When that happens it usually doesn't end well... For Coach Gilmore to reverse course in my opinion (things in his control): 1) develop the players you have on your roster better 2) speed and strength needs to improve...big time 3) teach technique and fundamentals better...a lot better (blocking and tackling first and foremost!!!) 4) get more out of the roster you have (find a Cozier earlier!) 5) find a more diverse offense somehow (think Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham) 6) quit playing guys just because they are Juniors or Seniors. Throw some younger guys into the fire earlier and see if that helps. evaluate your whole roster 7) Dont put all your eggs into Peter Pujals basket.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 16:13:32 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread. 2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13. Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham 31-48 over the last seven seasons. There can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Can't play defense. Can't run the football. Can't manage the game. Can't make adjustments. FOR THIRTEEN SEASONS! I hope CTG sends at least half of his paycheck to Dom, his classmates and the assistant coaches those years because they created this never-ending hope that he might be a competent head coach. He is not. Perhaps it was more than just "Dom Years" vs "Non-Dom Years"? Perhaps there were more factors at play, like the Ivy bumping up their aid, NEC adding scholarships (making the PL the only non-schollie non-Ivy in the Northeast), HC being right near the bottom in the PL in resources devoted to football? Things shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum like you want to do. Also, I've spoken with people who know far more about TG's coaching abilities than you do, and they would disagree with your assessment completely. Your speak in fact that he is "not competent," which is a ridiculous statement.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 16:17:01 GMT -5
I'm in complete agreement with HC92 on this one. Epic Fail. It's time to rip the Band-Aid off. No doubt Gilmore did well at restoring winning ways a few years ago but he's had his chance with 4 year scholarship and he didn't deliver - plain and simple. Too many halftime leads and second half losses where they didn't adjust; too many times the Defense has failed to come up with big stops and in general the Defense hasn't improved. Time to get new blood in here with someone who can recruit much better in anticipation of 5-6 D1A games on the schedule over the next 5 years. Complete disaster. It's unfair to expect freshmen and sophomores to contribute to the levels that you are expecting when you say he's had 4 years of scholarships. With 60 scholarships to spread around, it's going to take more than 4 years to have a 2-deep filled with scholarship players.
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Post by worcester on Nov 18, 2016 16:31:01 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread. 2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13. Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham close only counts in horseshoes'. I keep seeing the word lost in your messages. The bottom line is they lost. I'm curious as to what Holy Cross alums define as success. The man has been here 13 years and is under 500. If the alums define that as success then they should keep him.
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Post by dharry13 on Nov 18, 2016 16:39:37 GMT -5
Bringbackcaro - then what is fair. What black and white metric do you want to use in order to determine success. Most people in America when it comes to assessing how well a Coach has done is in Wins and Losses. So I guess you don't want to use that - rather throw excuses at it as to why others have won and we haven't.
Apparently it's also unfair to expect freshman and sophomores to contribute; that's fine because our Seniors and Juniors haven't done well enough to allow us to win more against other team's Seniors and Juniors. Granted many programs across the country get contributions from Freshman and Sophomores but apparently at HC we shouldn't expect that that tall order.
So what is it? What's the line in the sand where you think a change is warranted? Perhaps another 7 years of less than mediocrity? Great!! Sign me up!! I guess you just want to stick your head in the sand and keeps your fingers crossed - sounds like a plan.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 17:02:51 GMT -5
Bringbackcaro - then what is fair. What black and white metric do you want to use in order to determine success. Most people in America when it comes to assessing how well a Coach has done is in Wins and Losses. So I guess you don't want to use that - rather throw excuses at it as to why others have won and we haven't. Apparently it's also unfair to expect freshman and sophomores to contribute; that's fine because our Seniors and Juniors haven't done well enough to allow us to win more against other team's Seniors and Juniors. Granted many programs across the country get contributions from Freshman and Sophomores but apparently at HC we shouldn't expect that that tall order. So what is it? What's the line in the sand where you think a change is warranted? Perhaps another 7 years of less than mediocrity? Great!! Sign me up!! I guess you just want to stick your head in the sand and keeps your fingers crossed - sounds like a plan. 1) They're not excuses, they're facts that shouldn't be ignored. 2) Name me an Ivy or PL school that has been successful relying heavily on freshmen and sophomores. I bet you can't. I bet you'd have trouble coming up with a school at any level where that is the case. 3) Let's keep losing! That's what I'm hoping for! Glad Pine and TG share that same vision with me! I'm not saying TG definitely should have been retained and given another contract extension, but there is a hell of a lot more at play here than the bubble where the keyboard warriors live where they just want to say "our record was x-x over the past x years, fire his a$$!" To say it's an awful or disastrous decision 9 months before we play another football game is just silly. Time will tell, and at worst, one more year with TG is not going to set us back any farther. Unlike Milan Brown who was causing more damage the longer he remained on the job, TG is not incompetent.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 17:12:12 GMT -5
There's a bit of how quickly they forget in this thread. 2015 season, HC had two 'bad' losses. Lost to Colgate by 17, Colgate lost in the FCS quarterfinals. Lost to Lehigh by 13. Lost to @fordham in OT, but HC had 100 more net yards than Fordham 31-48 over the last seven seasons. There can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Teevens at Dartmouth, 20-50 over seven seasons 2005-2011. That's winning less than 30 percent of the games. Still at Dartmouth. Wilson @columbia, six seasons, 2006-2011, winning percentage 28 percent. Replaced.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 17:15:19 GMT -5
One more year like this will set us back very far. Caro you have to realize that we're moving in one direction and Lehigh, for example, is moving in the opposite direction. For ever yard we step backwards Lehigh, who in that same time period will have moved forward another yard, ends up 2 yards more ahead of us. It's hard to swallow more of the wait and see game for some of us, as people who have a feel for the game have seen a gap widening exponentially for 4 years. Go ahead and throw numbers away; just give it the eye test.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 18, 2016 17:22:33 GMT -5
31-48 over the last seven seasons. There can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Can't play defense. Can't run the football. Can't manage the game. Can't make adjustments. FOR THIRTEEN SEASONS! I hope CTG sends at least half of his paycheck to Dom, his classmates and the assistant coaches those years because they created this never-ending hope that he might be a competent head coach. He is not. Perhaps it was more than just "Dom Years" vs "Non-Dom Years"? Perhaps there were more factors at play, like the Ivy bumping up their aid, NEC adding scholarships (making the PL the only non-schollie non-Ivy in the Northeast), HC being right near the bottom in the PL in resources devoted to football? Things shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum like you want to do. Also, I've spoken with people who know far more about TG's coaching abilities than you do, and they would disagree with your assessment completely. Your speak in fact that he is "not competent," which is a ridiculous statement. We are not good at football and have not been for 7 years. Make all the excuses for the guy you want. We can't run the football. We can't play defense. We don't make good adjustments during the games. We can't manage the clock to save our lives. Ask your friends who know so much more than I do about TG's coaching ability to provide you some facts that you can regurgitate here to refute any one of those points. The current world in which TG is floundering is the world as it's going to be going forward. Time to try something different.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 18, 2016 17:31:46 GMT -5
31-48 over the last seven seasons. There can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Teevens at Dartmouth, 20-50 over seven seasons 2005-2011. That's winning less than 30 percent of the games. Still at Dartmouth. Dartmouth has gotten pretty good over the past few years. Did Teevens learn to coach, or did Dartmouth invest more into the football program?
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 18, 2016 17:32:36 GMT -5
What will be interesting if any staff changes are made. If they are, it tells me TG had to make concessions to keep his job and maybe he was gonna get launched but copped a plea to save his ass; while if none are made, it may mean he was never in trouble. I have a gut feeling that the academic people were in favor of keeping TG, and who knows - perhaps NP was overruled.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 18:10:15 GMT -5
Teevens at Dartmouth, 20-50 over seven seasons 2005-2011. That's winning less than 30 percent of the games. Still at Dartmouth. Dartmouth has gotten pretty good over the past few years. Did Teevens learn to coach, or did Dartmouth invest more into the football program? Teevens leaves Dartmouth for Tulane. Wins 11 games in five seasons. I think a former Dartmouth AD became AD at Stanford. Anyway, based on his great record at Tulane, Teevens becomes head coach at Stanford. His record is better than at Tulane, but who knows what kind of classes he inherited. After three years at Stanford, finishing either 8th or 9th in the Pac10, he returns to Dartmouth. At Dartmouth, it takes him 10 seasons before he wins seven games in a season. How to explain his very recent success at Dartmouth? The explanation I lean toward is that Dartmouth began offering fin aid packages that were competitive with HYP. Until Dartmouth did that, Teevens was basically running a middling program. On Dartmouth's roster of somewhere between 115 and 120 players, there are three from New England. It would be interesting to compare the geographic distribution of the current roster with a Dartmouth roster from 10 years ago. Having looked at the rosters of Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, and now Dartmouth, these seven schools have largely, if not entirely, abandoned recruiting in New England. Holy Cross has not. And I remember when Addazio first came to BC, he announced his recruiting focus was going to be on the Northeast. Look what that brought him. When I posted the race of the 23 players on Fordham's roster who had numbers 1-20, 17, IIRC, were minority. Maybe if someone went back to one of the better Duffner teams, and counted the number of minority faces, and compared percentages to contemporary Fordham....... .
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 18:30:39 GMT -5
Perhaps it was more than just "Dom Years" vs "Non-Dom Years"? Perhaps there were more factors at play, like the Ivy bumping up their aid, NEC adding scholarships (making the PL the only non-schollie non-Ivy in the Northeast), HC being right near the bottom in the PL in resources devoted to football? Things shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum like you want to do. Also, I've spoken with people who know far more about TG's coaching abilities than you do, and they would disagree with your assessment completely. Your speak in fact that he is "not competent," which is a ridiculous statement. We are not good at football and have not been for 7 years. Make all the excuses for the guy you want. We can't run the football. We can't play defense. We don't make good adjustments during the games. We can't manage the clock to save our lives. Ask your friends who know so much more than I do about TG's coaching ability to provide you some facts that you can regurgitate here to refute any one of those points. The current world in which TG is floundering is the world as it's going to be going forward. Time to try something different. We've had 5 bad seasons in a row, with a 6-5 season mixed in. We were in 2nd place in the PL in years 6 & 7. We've been bad primarily because there has been a significant drop off in talent, triggered primarily by facts that I previously laid out. Our talent is starting to turn around, but it's not there yet, and won't be until we have strong 2-deep scholarship depth at every position. In the first two games this year we saw a team that was a hell of a lot better than the team that played against Fordham, primarily because we do not have any depth right now and were decimated by injuries. I could have understood either retaining or firing Gilmore this year, but people who understand far more about what is going on now and what has gone on over Gilmore's tenure than the keyboard warriors decided that giving Gilmore one more year was the best decision right now. You can agree or disagree, but saying it's a disastrous decision or a major failure is just plain stupid.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 18, 2016 18:41:15 GMT -5
here can't be too many D-1 head football coaches in history who had a 7-year stretch winning less than 40% of their games and kept their job. Bucknell's Joe Susan is trading the 40% line at 32-44. Georgetown's Kevin Kelly was 23-64 in eight seasons.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 18:42:12 GMT -5
One more year like this will set us back very far. Caro you have to realize that we're moving in one direction and Lehigh, for example, is moving in the opposite direction. For ever yard we step backwards Lehigh, who in that same time period will have moved forward another yard, ends up 2 yards more ahead of us. It's hard to swallow more of the wait and see game for some of us, as people who have a feel for the game have seen a gap widening exponentially for 4 years. Go ahead and throw numbers away; just give it the eye test. OK, OK, let's rip out all of the luxurious amenities in the beautiful Hart Center, go find Vince Lombardi's grandson and hire up to be the head coach provided that he can dust of Vince's old playbooks and install a 2 TE + FB offense and promise to run the ball 99% of the time. That's how to turn it around! I'm on board! How crazy to think that as someone with over 30 years of experience in the Patriot & Ivy Leagues, Tom Gilmore might just know what he's doing and deserve one more year with scholarship players to see if he can turn things around (as he HAS ALREADY DONE before) rather than bringing in someone who we have no idea will know how to handle being a Head Coach at Holy Cross. Milan Brown had more head coaching experience than any Head Football Coach that we would be able to hire this offseason, yet he was in completely over his head at HC, and made the situation worse. Tossing away a coach who has been successful at HC before without a clear backup plan right now would open the door for the same disaster that occurred with basketball.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 19:10:04 GMT -5
OK, OK, let's . . . install a 2 TE + FB offense and promise to run the ball 99% of the time. That's how to turn it around! I'm on board! Minus your exaggeration about running the ball 99% of the time, why the hell not? You think it's insane and maybe that's part of what's wrong with HC football. We don't scare or intimidate anybody. I don't think we'd scare Assumption or WPI right now. I'm sorry if that offends you or anyone but again we need to stop BS'ing ourselves. Look I like Tom Gilmore - he's a terrific guy who has run a clean program and won a PL championship. That means a whole lot, and the guys that come through the program I would be proud to have as my own sons, and can only wish to be that lucky in life. But to keep pushing forward in the same manner just because we have Hart Center renovations and some other initiatives on the horizon is the definition of insanity, and not fair to these guys. If the personnel isn't going to change, than there needs to be a philosophical change. The worst thing we can do as alumni and fans is to sit back and not voice our opinions, whether that be here, via email, phone, letter to the editors, or by no longer donating - whatever it takes. Something inherently needs to change, and change big time. We must be the most courteous, patient, and tolerable fan base on the damn planet. How do some of you older alumni feel? Don't you want to see HC football dominate again in your lifetimes? By the way, in terms of experience, I've seen surgeons who have had successful 30 year careers who can't operate themselves out of a paper bag. Screw years. The Fordham coach is in his early to mid 30s I think. I said earlier this year that Fordham's period of domination was over, and also posted during the UNH game that we were good again. Boy am I eating crow right now, but at least I admit it.
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Post by ncaam on Nov 18, 2016 19:10:16 GMT -5
We need some more 5'6, 165pd, 5.1 40yd dash deebees. . Recruiting is where HC/CTG is coming up short, his clock management notwithstanding.
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Post by inhocsigno on Nov 18, 2016 19:19:54 GMT -5
We need some more 5'6, 165pd, 5.1 40yd dash deebees. . Recruiting is where HC/CTG is coming up short, his clock management notwithstanding. Do we have any of those? I think you are referring to the bobblehead figures they gave out.
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