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Post by sader1970 on Sept 21, 2023 8:57:28 GMT -5
Lots of discussion on another thread about whether Holy Cross should leave or stay in the Patriot League. My "gut" tells me that most are happy with the league but there are a number of posters that are extremely vocal about what they see as a necessity to put the PL in our rear-view mirror.
Let's see what the Crossports posters really believe! Would be nice if respondents explain in detail why they believe what they believe (i.e. more prestige; ability to attract better quality students; financial impact; shorter travel, etc.)
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Post by dharry13 on Sept 21, 2023 8:58:55 GMT -5
The PL stinks. In pretty much every sport. The day HC leaves is a good day.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 21, 2023 9:00:48 GMT -5
The PL stinks. In pretty much every sport. The day HC leaves is a good day. Can I loosely translate your response as leaving for "more prestige?"
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Post by dharry13 on Sept 21, 2023 9:04:40 GMT -5
I guess at the end of the day as my personal focus is being around like minded athletic programs versus academics. I know our academics won't suffer and would rather be associated with Richmond, Nova and W&M who care about athletics as well.
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Post by hc2020 on Sept 21, 2023 9:35:38 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance, but are there any significant financial ramifications if we were to leave the PL and join another conference? I’m sure the costs involved would be a material consideration.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 21, 2023 9:58:47 GMT -5
When there was alumni interest in joining the Big East in the mid-80s, the required dollars were available outside the school budget. I assume that would be the case now if the BOT and President want change to happen.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 21, 2023 10:16:47 GMT -5
The CAA in 2021 would interest me, but not the CAA today.
With the additions of North Carolina A&T, Hampton, and Campbell, this has become a southern-based conference when you factor in existing members in Virginia (Richmond, W&M), Delaware, Maryland (Towson) and North Carolina (Elon). Show of hands who wants to travel down to Buies Creek, North Carolina for a game against the Campbell Camels.
The nice thing about the PL is that every league game is "within striking distance" for most fans.
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FBS just ain't happening. Holy Cross isn't adding 22 additional scholarships and pouring millions of more dollars into the program. Tulsa is currently the smallest FBS school with about 3,000 undergrads. Excluding the academies, the next smallest FBS school is Rice (8,000+). Holy Cross also doesn't want to get into the NIL landscape to the extent in which would be required to compete effectively. Do we really want to be like UMass, which is in no man's land as an Independent? What conference are we joining. FCS is the perfect level of football. Plus, as we've seen at the top of the FCS, there isn't a material difference between the bottom 30 FBS teams and top 20 FCS.
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I've posted this elsewhere, but the perfect storm would be the northern-most CAA schools getting fed up of making trips southward. There's just no way the New England CAA football schools were happy seeing NC A&T, Hampton, and Campbell join the league. The CAA is going to be a 16 team conference next year. Too big, IMO.
I don't believe Holy Cross would be able to leave the PL in football and remain for other sports (if they could, I'd love to see HC join an America East football conference), so here's the only option for me:
The PL expands to include the following schools, which would make up a 12 team conference: The seven existing schools + Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Villanova. If Georgetown throws a hissy fit, then fine -- see ya. We'll lose them and add Bryant (future CAA football member).
PL North: Maine, UNH, URI, Holy Cross, Albany, Colgate. PL South: Fordham, Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Georgetown, Villanova
This would require the Patriot League to 1) allow for non-medical fifth years, and 2) lose the Academic Index
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Post by nhteamer on Sept 21, 2023 10:21:07 GMT -5
Have fun guys
I LOVE Holy Cross
But we don't move the needle in ANY way anymore. We are invisible.
Fr Brooks made sure of that.
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Post by hc2020 on Sept 21, 2023 10:43:56 GMT -5
When there was alumni interest in joining the Big East in the mid-80s, the required dollars were available outside the school budget. I assume that would be the case now if the BOT and President want change to happen. In addition to a buy-in amount that would be due to existing member schools if we were to jump to another conference, I assume our exit from the PL would trigger a buy-out payment/penalty that would be due to the remaining PL schools. Those payments, combined, would probably not be an insignificant sum.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 21, 2023 10:46:23 GMT -5
Have fun guys I LOVE Holy Cross But we don't move the needle in ANY way anymore. We are invisible. Fr Brooks made sure of that. Check out the explosion in FCS new media. I doubt there's a site that hasn't discussed Holy Cross during the past couple of years. "New Media" coverage is waiting for us in any other sport that succeeds to a similar extent as football. Any of the proposed new league formations would be about as invisible as the PL in the mainstream legacy media covering pro sports and power conferences that is on the decline. Women's hockey joining the top regional league hasn't moved the needle in a positive way. Any additional coverage alerts the public that this particular Holy Cross Sport is woeful at the moment. That moves the needle in the wrong direction. Give me a league that provides the best chance at the national post season.
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Post by efg72 on Sept 21, 2023 10:46:37 GMT -5
agree but nothing like the cost of the Big East efforts in the mid-80s, and the money was there
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Post by efg72 on Sept 21, 2023 11:00:02 GMT -5
Would the other category include expanding the PL with schools like UNH, Villanova, W&M, and Richmond?
If so, and IMHO, that makes more sense than the status quo and would be for football only.
Again, for any change to happen, it will require the BOT and President to want this to happen- time will tell.
I have not voted yet as I need to give it more thought, especially if PL expansion is an option. The expansion would not include the other non-ivies on our OOC schedule.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 21, 2023 11:06:03 GMT -5
Instead of like minded academics I might substitute or add like minded existential struggle. While most PL schools are fairly well endowed, not enough so to significantly subsidize tuition so partnering with other high priced private schools at least let's us commiserate and strategize with other fine institutions in the same boat.
Fir example, if the trend among larger State schools is to reduce the number of varsity sports while increasing scholarships for the remaining ones, Patriot League schools can't really follow because the D-1 participation model calls for an extensive amount of D-1 sports with a large amount of private pay non-scholarship student athletes and a small amount of expensive scholarships.
Perhaps waiting until Holy Cross has a record above .500 across all sports before considering bailing on the PL would be prudent. Might not take too long as Kit is all about winning.
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Post by hcmawfawo on Sept 21, 2023 11:16:43 GMT -5
Open to “other” but need to know what “other” would be. Change for the sake of change is not compelling and does nothing to change past decisions. So voted option 1. Trust that HC is keeping close eyes on the landscape.
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Post by Ignutz on Sept 21, 2023 11:18:04 GMT -5
The CAA in 2021 would interest me, but not the CAA today. With the additions of North Carolina A&T, Hampton, and Campbell, this has become a southern-based conference when you factor in existing members in Virginia (Richmond, W&M), Delaware, Maryland (Towson) and North Carolina (Elon). Show of hands who wants to travel down to Buies Creek, North Carolina for a game against the Campbell Camels. The nice thing about the PL is that every league game is "within striking distance" for most fans. -- FBS just ain't happening. Holy Cross isn't adding 22 additional scholarships and pouring millions of more dollars into the program. Tulsa is currently the smallest FBS school with about 3,000 undergrads. Excluding the academies, the next smallest FBS school is Rice (8,000+). Holy Cross also doesn't want to get into the NIL landscape to the extent in which would be required to compete effectively. Do we really want to be like UMass, which is in no man's land as an Independent? What conference are we joining. FCS is the perfect level of football. Plus, as we've seen at the top of the FCS, there isn't a material difference between the bottom 30 FBS teams and top 20 FCS. -- I've posted this elsewhere, but the perfect storm would be the northern-most CAA schools getting fed up of making trips southward. There's just no way the New England CAA football schools were happy seeing NC A&T, Hampton, and Campbell join the league. The CAA is going to be a 16 team conference next year. Too big, IMO. I don't believe Holy Cross would be able to leave the PL in football and remain for other sports (if they could, I'd love to see HC join an America East football conference), so here's the only option for me: The PL expands to include the following schools, which would make up a 12 team conference: The seven existing schools + Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Villanova. If Georgetown throws a hissy fit, then fine -- see ya. We'll lose them and add Bryant (future CAA football member). PL North: Maine, UNH, URI, Holy Cross, Albany, Colgate. PL South: Fordham, Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Georgetown, Villanova This would require the Patriot League to 1) allow for non-medical fifth years, and 2) lose the Academic Index From a combined, big-picture athletics & academics perspective, I don't think we belong in a league with Maine, URI, Albany, Bryant, and probably UNH. Otherwise, I'm fine with this - which means we've only added Villanova, and that won't happen. (For the record, I don't think we should be in a league with BU or American, either,)
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 21, 2023 11:42:43 GMT -5
I would like to see some sort of new conference with a collection of the northern CAA teams, HC, Fordham, Villanova, perhaps UMass and UConn. I can see Merrimack fitting into that conference as well. A new Big East football conference with the academies? If it was a Big East Football conference, the only ones sponsoring football currently are Butler, UConn, Georgetown, and Nova. I think Butler would go for it but not Georgetown. For me the PL does nothing. Too far geographically for my liking and in reality they don't have that much in common with us academically. Perhaps the only thing in common is a like-minded outlook on athletics. That appears to be evolving at Holy Cross.
Holy Cross Fordham Villanova UConn UMass Merrimack UNH Maine Bryant URI (not sure on Butler, SB, Albany, Colgate)
I like the stability of the PL but all it takes is one football member leaving to disrupt the system and we lose the autobid. I wouldn't mind playing one top Ivy per year, but would rather play the likes of Bill and Mary as a non-conference option. I think W&M is more like us than say Maine or URI, so a trip down to beautiful Williamsburg would be ok. A 30 minute ride from Holy Cross to Merrimack or a 55 minute ride to UConn is much better for all sports than a 5 hour ride to Hamilton, a 6 hour ride to Lewisburg, or a 10 hour drive to DC.
I would be in support of the CAA only with divisions and pods that would limit our travel. I think splitting into 2 eight team divisions is reasonable. We play 7 divisional games plus 1 out of division game, and 3 non-conference tilts. That would be ok. Our furthest game would probably be either Villanova or Maine. We already play Maine in women's hockey and Villanova could be in a South division, meaning we only travel down there every few years.
I think FBS is a bit pie-in-the-sky and unreasonable based on financials. Do not get be wrong, we could beat BC, UVA, (and apparently FSU), Vandy, and some other crappy P5 schools this year as well as a bunch of MAC and Sun Belt. No doubt. Did I create an HC football team on the NCAA football video game and play in the ACC back when I was a kid? Yes. That didn't involve finances though!
One more note: With the P5 reduced to a P4 next year and the other "Group of" conferences scrambling to figure things out, I do think it is reasonable for the FBS to have a split. We wind up with 3 Division 1 levels: FBS, the Mediocre Bowl Division, and the FCS. I find the FCS national championship more attractive than the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl or the Bojangles Bowl, however, you do still have a bit of a bowl payout in those instances. If the second tier in my hypothetical three tier system also plays in a bracket, I would sign up immediately. Maybe you could get UConn, UMass, Army, Navy to band together with HC, Fordham, Villanova, UNH and others in a new conference in the 2nd level. Who knows.
Ultimately guys, we have Colgate on Saturday. Let's go undefeated this week. Love seeing all the hypotheticals though.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Sept 21, 2023 11:44:09 GMT -5
The CAA in 2021 would interest me, but not the CAA today. With the additions of North Carolina A&T, Hampton, and Campbell, this has become a southern-based conference when you factor in existing members in Virginia (Richmond, W&M), Delaware, Maryland (Towson) and North Carolina (Elon). Show of hands who wants to travel down to Buies Creek, North Carolina for a game against the Campbell Camels. The nice thing about the PL is that every league game is "within striking distance" for most fans. -- FBS just ain't happening. Holy Cross isn't adding 22 additional scholarships and pouring millions of more dollars into the program. Tulsa is currently the smallest FBS school with about 3,000 undergrads. Excluding the academies, the next smallest FBS school is Rice (8,000+). Holy Cross also doesn't want to get into the NIL landscape to the extent in which would be required to compete effectively. Do we really want to be like UMass, which is in no man's land as an Independent? What conference are we joining. FCS is the perfect level of football. Plus, as we've seen at the top of the FCS, there isn't a material difference between the bottom 30 FBS teams and top 20 FCS. -- I've posted this elsewhere, but the perfect storm would be the northern-most CAA schools getting fed up of making trips southward. There's just no way the New England CAA football schools were happy seeing NC A&T, Hampton, and Campbell join the league. The CAA is going to be a 16 team conference next year. Too big, IMO. I don't believe Holy Cross would be able to leave the PL in football and remain for other sports (if they could, I'd love to see HC join an America East football conference), so here's the only option for me: The PL expands to include the following schools, which would make up a 12 team conference: The seven existing schools + Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Villanova. If Georgetown throws a hissy fit, then fine -- see ya. We'll lose them and add Bryant (future CAA football member). PL North: Maine, UNH, URI, Holy Cross, Albany, Colgate. PL South: Fordham, Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Georgetown, Villanova This would require the Patriot League to 1) allow for non-medical fifth years, and 2) lose the Academic Index From a combined, big-picture athletics & academics perspective, I don't think we belong in a league with Maine, URI, Albany, Bryant, and probably UNH. Otherwise, I'm fine with this - which means we've only added Villanova, and that won't happen. (For the record, I don't think we should be in a league with BU or American, either,) If you can show me how the following eight schools academic reputations and rankings have take a hit as a result of being in conferences without academic peers / like-minded schools, you have my attention: Vanderbilt - SEC Stanford - PAC12 MIT - NEWMAC Duke - ACC Northwestern - Big Ten Rice - AAC Notre Dame - ACC Georgetown - Big East
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Post by drjack on Sept 21, 2023 11:45:20 GMT -5
0% chance the PL expands by adding the northern CAA schools. We offer them nothing and would just be enforcing more restrictions on them.
They'd sooner make an AE football conference or a new Yankee conference than join the PL.
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Post by dharry13 on Sept 21, 2023 11:51:19 GMT -5
From a combined, big-picture athletics & academics perspective, I don't think we belong in a league with Maine, URI, Albany, Bryant, and probably UNH. Otherwise, I'm fine with this - which means we've only added Villanova, and that won't happen. (For the record, I don't think we should be in a league with BU or American, either,) If you can show me how the following rights schools academic reputations and rankings have take a hit as a result of being in conferences without academic peers / like-minded schools, you have my attention: Vanderbilt - SEC Stanford - PAC12 MIT - NEWMAC Duke - ACC Northwestern - Big Ten Rice - AAC Notre Dame - ACC Georgetown - Big East No one can do that. Because it hasn't happened. It wouldn't happen to Holy Cross either. Not for one second. I will never understand the idea of being involved with crappy athletic schools in order to be aligned with similar academic profiled schools. I just will never get this argument. It holds zero water. It's a wanna be Ivy thought.
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Post by gks on Sept 21, 2023 12:01:21 GMT -5
Here we go....
If the Patriot League would get rid of any stupid, ignorant and self-destructive self-imposed restrictions it would be a much better conference. And maybe, just maybe you'd get a decent football school sniffing around to join. Without this if you type in the words "Villanova", "William and Mary" and expand you're crazy.
No one EVER has said....I'm not going to apply to fill in the blank school because they play the dummies at the local State U. This is an arrogant, isolationist argument.
The Patriot League model was proven a failure. If it was a success we'd still be non-scholarship.
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Post by HC92 on Sept 21, 2023 12:09:54 GMT -5
I don’t like the Patriot League. It should give us a good chance to make the FCS playoffs and the NCAA tourney every year so I guess that’s a positive. But that’s about it.
The problem with leaving is that it’s hard to come up with 8-10 schools who all offer football and basketball who would all have interest in a new conference. None of the existing conferences that might have us appeal to me. If Paulsen can get basketball to a top 150 program, we might be more attractive as a founding member of a new conference along the lines of what efg suggests.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 21, 2023 12:12:36 GMT -5
Have fun guys I LOVE Holy Cross But we don't move the needle in ANY way anymore. We are invisible. Fr Brooks made sure of that. Check out the explosion in FCS new media. I doubt there's a site that hasn't discussed Holy Cross during the past couple of years. "New Media" coverage is waiting for us in any other sport that succeeds to a similar extent as football. Any of the proposed new league formations would be about as invisible as the PL in the mainstream legacy media covering pro sports and power conferences that is on the decline. Women's hockey joining the top regional league hasn't moved the needle in a positive way. Any additional coverage alerts the public that this particular Holy Cross Sport is woeful at the moment. That moves the needle in the wrong direction. Give me a league that provides the best chance at the national post season. What New Media you talking about? The New England Football Journal has 16k followers on Twitter....that isn't even enough to fill up Fitton. Any Given Saturday has 1,700 followers. Many of the accounts you guys discuss have very small followings...
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Post by Chu Chu on Sept 21, 2023 12:13:49 GMT -5
I think the patriot league is really a good fit for us, but I would like to see it improved over time. I do not think that means adding larger state universities like Albany New Hampshire and Maine, however. Merrimack has the potential to be a good league member, and a close rival for us, even though they are new on the scene. I would also love to see the addition of Richmond along with William and Mary. I honestly think the patriot league has the potential to help us recruit the type of scholar athletes we need, and in football it gives us the enviable ability to schedule marquee opponents outside of the league schedule.
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Post by HC92 on Sept 21, 2023 12:19:17 GMT -5
Maybe an all-sport conference of: Bucknell Richmond William and Mary Delaware Holy Cross URI Fordham Colgate
Realistic, mostly high academic, schools who have all been good at football and/or basketball in the relatively recent past. Logical north and south divisions so everyone has a few schools not too far. I’ve heard crazier.
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Post by mm67 on Sept 21, 2023 12:20:52 GMT -5
The PL is a good fit for HC. Why leave? I truly don't understand. Is it to seek greater glory by playing higher level competition? I came up with pre-1AA football. I remember HC football with no freshman elgibility for the varsity, no spring practice, no post season play and the football was as exciting as today. No doubt the TPTB and I would expect the overwhelming majority of alums want HC to remain in the PL as it is. I don't know about the views of the students who actually attend the school but I suspect large numbers of those who care are satisfied w/the PL. Remaining in the PL is the prudent thing to do. It makes sense for HC to stay in the PL.
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