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Post by hc6774 on Sept 22, 2023 8:11:19 GMT -5
Perhaps the best option for now might be to pressure the PL to do the following: Hire a proven and driven Administrative team Make significant investments to promote the league and maximize it's exposure Fix the basic program problems of the league- nonmedical 5th year etc. Require member schools to make real commitments to football and improve the bottom of the conference Phase Two Over the next 24 months make sure you can retain the current schools Using the campaign to promote the league add three quality schools- similar to the current PL football membership (CAA members or FBS schools that lose in the realignment). These additions can be football only if needed. Allows for two/three non conference games and include up to two buy games each year Thoughts for a Friday morning good thoughts ...basically, we're talking FCS football national championship potential the 63 equivalents & unlimited roster size may be a step to attracting (dare to think Army & Navy?) as well as solidifying PL football members...
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Post by Ignutz on Sept 22, 2023 8:15:42 GMT -5
Perhaps the best option for now might be to pressure the PL to do the following: Hire a proven and driven Administrative team Make significant investments to promote the league and maximize it's exposure Fix the basic program problems of the league- nonmedical 5th year etc. Require member schools to make real commitments to football and improve the bottom of the conference Phase Two Over the next 24 months make sure you can retain the current schools Using the campaign to promote the league add three quality schools- similar to the current PL football membership (CAA members or FBS schools that lose in the realignment). These additions can be football only if needed. Allows for two/three non conference games and include up to two buy games each year Thoughts for a Friday morning I couldn’t agree more. I have resigned myself to HC being in the PL for the duration. That being the case, the PL should do all it can to make the league stronger. I believe there are several schools in the CAA who aren’t happy with the direction the league has taken. These schools definitely fit the academic profile of the league and would give the PL a nice bump football-wise. I also would like to see a couple of New England schools join as all sports minus football, to give HC a couple of neighbors. They fit the academic profile of the league and I suspect they aren’t all that thrilled with the MAAC and the CAA. I heartily agree with each of you. Let's go undefeated tomorrow!
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 22, 2023 8:28:44 GMT -5
Regardless of leagues, I just hope HC continues to push for recruiting local young fans (loved seeing the Sluka shirt!). I highly doubt established pro fans are ever going to change and suddenly start seriously following college football. Let's face it - the average Joe Six Pack that faithfully listens to WEEI and The Sports Hub and wears the Pats jerseys do not know Bob Chesney from Bob Keeshan.....and they also couldn't name the BC or UMass coaches either. Here's a (silly) idea: maybe the NFL could borrow a page from the old AFL and institute a territorial college draft. Then, the NFL teams fully fund their colleges with NIL $$$. Then HC can buy all the players they want and fill up Fitton for the showdown with Alabama.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Sept 22, 2023 8:28:59 GMT -5
Good few posts here. I don't like the context for the "NO" vote, although that was my vote. Like-minded, academic first schools? Meh... it's sort of lame from a recruitment, athletics-serious program perspective. I don't want athletes that are completely separate from and non-representative of the student body. However, you can be in a league that prioritizes athletics, while the schools prioritize academics. I'm not sure it has to be mutually exclusive. I don't think the PL should be giving out summer reading lists, or patches for good grades, but it doesn't mean that the players should be ogres that can't spell their own names.
Regarding leaving the PL, pump the brakes. Has our rise in football been precipitous, sustained, and remarkably positive? Yes. We could change leagues tomorrow, Chesney could go to Penn State for $10M a year a day later, and we'd be in serious, serious trouble. You've got to look at that 200 day moving average (or across the last ten years or so). We lose our Swiss Army Knife QB after this year, and a LOT can change quickly. I'm not saying avoid risk and growth, but I am at least cautioning hubris after spending a long time in the wilderness.
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Post by HC92 on Sept 22, 2023 8:50:41 GMT -5
No one can do that. Because it hasn't happened. It wouldn't happen to Holy Cross either. Not for one second. I will never understand the idea of being involved with crappy athletic schools in order to be aligned with similar academic profiled schools. I just will never get this argument. It holds zero water. It's a wanna be Ivy thought. I totally agree with this. No one....and I mean no one....chooses a school based on who they play in an athletic conference. You think someone is not going to attend Vanderbilt because they play Alabama and LSU? I'm not going to attend Stanford because they are (were) in a league with Arizona and Arizona State! It's academic snobbery sold by the President's office...and many alums buy in because it makes them feel superior. Now if Holy Cross feels like the Patriot model works for them....then that is a definite difference from other leagues and I respect that. However, I think that in a rapidly changing world of higher education and college athletics...I think that Holy Cross should examine other avenues for conference affiliation that allows them more flexibility in growing their athletic programs in terms of success and visibility. I think some kids definitely do choose where to go to school based on who they play in football and basketball. But because of whether those opponents are good at sports, not because of SAT scores.
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Post by HC92 on Sept 22, 2023 8:52:51 GMT -5
We definitely need to split the No votes into:
1. No, I like the PL and it’s a good permanent home for us.
2. No, I don’t like the PL but it’s the best available option that is realistic at the moment.
The idea that all the No votes mean people are happy in the PL is probably not correct.
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 22, 2023 8:55:48 GMT -5
Good few posts here. I don't like the context for the "NO" vote, although that was my vote. Like-minded, academic first schools? Meh... it's sort of lame from a recruitment, athletics-serious program perspective. I don't want athletes that are completely separate from and non-representative of the student body. However, you can be in a league that prioritizes athletics, while the schools prioritize academics. I'm not sure it has to be mutually exclusive. I don't think the PL should be giving out summer reading lists, or patches for good grades, but it doesn't mean that the players should be ogres that can't spell their own names. Regarding leaving the PL, pump the brakes. Has our rise in football been precipitous, sustained, and remarkably positive? Yes. We could change leagues tomorrow, Chesney could go to Penn State for $10M a year a day later, and we'd be in serious, serious trouble. You've got to look at that 200 day moving average (or across the last ten years or so). We lose our Swiss Army Knife QB after this year, and a LOT can change quickly. I'm not saying avoid risk and growth, but I am at least cautioning hubris after spending a long time in the wilderness. With the Giants offensive line struggles, while happy for Smith, I am really hoping he is our successor at head coach. Great guy and a great Holy Cross guy. The posts from the Colgate message board about tomorrow's tilt do fall right in line with what you are saying WCHC, about the fickle fleeting nature of success in today's game. With our depth, recruiting, and program status, I am not as worried as I once was. The fact that so many freshman are starting (I noticed 'Gate along with H and Y call them First Years abbreviated to FY--which to me is fiscal year but I digress) gives me great hope for our program. Continue to have buy games to help the bottom line and gain national exposure, I think we ride this out and see where we go. As long suffering posted, a PL team winning a natty or even going to Frisco is wild. There is a real possibility of that. Time is now. Good thing about playing in the PL is we don't have to worry about scheduling those D2 games that some schools are doing these days. And yes if I won the Powerball ( I'd have to convince my wife) I'd endow the football program hands down (after taking care of my family, investing, etc). I wonder how the Yale AD, referenced the other day on here in a Boston Globe NIL article, would react to a donor offering multiple billions to specifically gift to the football program. We wouldn't need to take any of the ACC tv money haha.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 22, 2023 8:57:23 GMT -5
Good few posts here. I don't like the context for the "NO" vote, although that was my vote. Like-minded, academic first schools? Meh... it's sort of lame from a recruitment, athletics-serious program perspective. I don't want athletes that are completely separate from and non-representative of the student body. However, you can be in a league that prioritizes athletics, while the schools prioritize academics. I'm not sure it has to be mutually exclusive. I don't think the PL should be giving out summer reading lists, or patches for good grades, but it doesn't mean that the players should be ogres that can't spell their own names. Regarding leaving the PL, pump the brakes. Has our rise in football been precipitous, sustained, and remarkably positive? Yes. We could change leagues tomorrow, Chesney could go to Penn State for $10M a year a day later, and we'd be in serious, serious trouble. You've got to look at that 200 day moving average (or across the last ten years or so). We lose our Swiss Army Knife QB after this year, and a LOT can change quickly. I'm not saying avoid risk and growth, but I am at least cautioning hubris after spending a long time in the wilderness. W/o getting into a rehash of The Decision, just look at basketball in the mid to late 70s for a similar fall from grace. (remember, HC went from ranked to oblivion in 77-78 and Dave Gavitt's league had nothin' to do with that; it didn't exist at that point in time).
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 22, 2023 9:08:38 GMT -5
We definitely need to split the No voted into: 1. No, I like the PL and it’s a good permanent home for us. 2. No, I don’t like the PL but it’s the best available option that is realistic at the moment. The idea that all the No votes mean people are happy in the PL is probably not correct. That is a good distinction. The majority on Crossports do not seem to want a move out of the PL even if their motivation is different. The idea of a few that the PL stinks and seems beyond help is probably not correct. Wht if the PL reorganized and added 1 (or3) mor schools who admire a league tat isnas stable as the PL appears?
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Post by purplehaze on Sept 22, 2023 9:19:09 GMT -5
I want to stay in the PL but we need to see improvement in the level of play in the league - the 3 Pa schools and Colgate need to make serious changes in how they operate their programs - the question is, are they willing ?
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Post by sader81 on Sept 22, 2023 9:25:22 GMT -5
I think most would agree that the reasons to get into the league were flawed in the first place. Why would anyone want to continue to compound this forty year mistake! We are floundering in a league with no real rivals, geographic or otherwise. The league shakeouts are continuing for the foreseeable future. Stand ready to jump to the best available alternative, which may not even be in play yet.
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 22, 2023 9:32:28 GMT -5
We definitely need to split the No voted into: 1. No, I like the PL and it’s a good permanent home for us. 2. No, I don’t like the PL but it’s the best available option that is realistic at the moment. The idea that all the No votes mean people are happy in the PL is probably not correct. I would love to see, if the poll was broken down as 92 suggested, how the "no" vote breaks down. It seems like the aforementioned option 2 would garner more votes than option 1. Let's blow the 'gates off the Raiders tomorrow. Leave no doubt.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Sept 22, 2023 9:35:58 GMT -5
Suffer from insomnia? Just start reading the posts in this thread starting on P.1; you'll be lights out before you reach P.2. lol
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 22, 2023 9:58:46 GMT -5
Perhaps the best option for now might be to pressure the PL to do the following: Hire a proven and driven Administrative team Make significant investments to promote the league and maximize it's exposure Fix the basic program problems of the league- nonmedical 5th year etc. Require member schools to make real commitments to football and improve the bottom of the conference Phase Two Over the next 24 months make sure you can retain the current schools Using the campaign to promote the league add three quality schools- similar to the current PL football membership (CAA members or FBS schools that lose in the realignment). These additions can be football only if needed. Allows for two/three non conference games and include up to two buy games each year Thoughts for a Friday morning "Require member schools" The rub is I don't think the league has much leverage with the schools. It's not like they can hold back funds from a huge TV contract or threaten to drop a school. If the Promotion/Delegation model was applied to the annual President's Cup standings, HC would have been relegated to the NEC years ago. To "Fix the basic program problems" is imperative but diplomatic soft power with enthusiasm and leading by example like with the way Coach Chesney has turned around HC FB is probably necessary before a vote. Continued positive exposure and increased crowds for HC FB games is hopefully persuasive.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Sept 22, 2023 9:59:39 GMT -5
An HC classmate, retired university prof. is opposed to HC fielding a football team. He claims it is not worth the great expense to field a football team given the exigencies of college budgets. He believes it is more cost effective to concentrate on basketball and to a lesser degree"minor sports." In sum he favors a smaller athletics budget with increases in spending on academics & other areas of campus life. Does the school lose a lot of money on football? How much? I chose HC over G-town in part due to football. My dad was incredulous. At the time I asked "What would I do on beautiful Saturday afternoons without football?". His response? Try studying. Actually, he attended Fordham in the '20's - early '30's and fully understood. As an older alum, what would I do now without HC football on Saturday afternoons? Probably, take a nap. Obviously, I made the right choice. If your friend took a look at a 2023 tuition bill, he'd understand that the school is financially holding up just fine when it comes to having capital available for both academics and a great football program. No one that knows is going to divulge the specifics. But this is a good way to look at it. All I’ll say is about ~100 students pay for the football program. You can speculate if it’s maybe a few more or a few less but that’s a nice round number to start. One can decide if ~100 tuition bills out of ~3,200 is worth the investment. And just an FYI, a little research and you can find the typical operating expenses for an FCS football program.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 22, 2023 10:00:10 GMT -5
We've always been a sort of "square peg" in a "round hole league." Most of our Olympic sports were at a D2/D3 level before the formation of the league and we've continued to struggle in most of them ovah the last 30+ years. Holy Cross' athletic focus, rightly or wrongly,, through the mid-1980s was primarily on the revenue sports of men's hoop and football. I'm not saying that was correct or what we need to return to, just that we mostly differed fundamentally in this regard than the other core PL schools leading up to the formation of the PL.
I will say this, the PL (nee Colonial League) was a "football-only" league for its first few years. Nevah happen, but I wish it would return to that.
Football is really the only sport imo that has benefited from being in the PL. Both the M&W hoop teams have had some success but we really aren't at the same level we once were pre "The Decision" as timholycross has defined it. Most of the other sports have struggled more than flourished as I mentioned earlier.
What's the solution? Damned if I know....that's why ADKH gets the big bucks. I'm just saying that football in the PL is probably the least of our problems with regards to being in this league.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 22, 2023 10:05:25 GMT -5
Regardless of leagues, I just hope HC continues to push for recruiting local young fans (loved seeing the Sluka shirt!). I highly doubt established pro fans are ever going to change and suddenly start seriously following college football. Let's face it - the average Joe Six Pack that faithfully listens to WEEI and The Sports Hub and wears the Pats jerseys do not know Bob Chesney from Bob Keeshan.....and they also couldn't name the BC or UMass coaches either. Here's a (silly) idea: maybe the NFL could borrow a page from the old AFL and institute a territorial college draft. Then, the NFL teams fully fund their colleges with NIL $$$. Then HC can buy all the players they want and fill up Fitton for the showdown with Alabama. Bob Keeshan or Hugh Brannum (Mr. Green Jeans) 🙂
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 22, 2023 10:22:22 GMT -5
And despite the hopes (and prayers) of some on here, Fordham isn't bolting for the CAA. They have a reasonable chance of making playoffs as the second best team in the PL. They have no chance of making playoffs in the CAA. No matter how many schools the CAA has, they won't get more than five slots -- the AQ and four at-large. There are only eleven at-large slots. The sixth best team in the CAA, which will probably have four losses, isn't getting in over a one or two loss second place team from another conference. The result is that every year one or two good CAA teams will be left out -- just ask URI. Fordham got smoked by bottom feeder Albany. They wouldn't be top five in the CAA, they wouldn't even be top half. To be fair to Fordham, they did go 3-0 against CAA comp during 2022 regular season. They also just beat an FBS team. I think they'd be at least somewhat competitive in the CAA. And Albany may be in the top half of the league this year -- it's early, but so far they have a decisive win over Fordham and two very close losses against FBS opponents (Marshall and Hawaii).
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 22, 2023 10:28:02 GMT -5
We've always been a sort of "square peg" in a "round hole league." Most of our Olympic sports were at a D2/D3 level before the formation of the league and we've continued to struggle in most of them ovah the last 30+ years. Holy Cross' athletic focus, rightly or wrongly,, through the mid-1980s was primarily on the revenue sports of men's hoop and football. I'm not saying that was correct or what we need to return to, just that we mostly differed fundamentally in this regard than the other core PL schools leading up to the formation of the PL. I will say this, the PL (nee Colonial League) was a "football-only" league for its first few years. Nevah happen, but I wish it would return to that. Football is really the only sport imo that has benefited from being in the PL. Both the M&W hoop teams have had some success but we really aren't at the same level we once were pre "The Decision" as timholycross has defined it. Most of the other sports have struggled more than flourished as I mentioned earlier. What's the solution? Damned if I know....that's why ADKH gets the big bucks. I'm just saying that football in the PL is probably the least of our problems with regards to being in this league. with the diminishment of NCAA (if not outright collapse) March Madness & upper level FBS football can survive on their own managed by the conferences?... FCS championship not so much?
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 22, 2023 10:31:47 GMT -5
If Fordham goes 9-2 with a loss to HC but including an FBS scalp they are in this year. 0-3 Stony Brook and Stonehill are their two remaining OOC games.
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Post by mm67 on Sept 22, 2023 10:31:52 GMT -5
Set up an easy-to-knock-down straw man, then knock it down. To wit: HC is in the PL for snob appeal or for reputation, etc. Misses the whole point about HC in the PL. HC is in the PL because of shared values with similar, like-minded high academic, in the main smaller colleges. Shared values as to the place of athletics in an academics first league. Shared values as to admissions, emphasis in relation to size of rosters, non-medical redshirts, etc. Read the statement by HC and take the school at its word. Peace.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 22, 2023 10:36:57 GMT -5
We've always been a sort of "square peg" in a "round hole league." Most of our Olympic sports were at a D2/D3 level before the formation of the league and we've continued to struggle in most of them ovah the last 30+ years. Holy Cross' athletic focus, rightly or wrongly,, through the mid-1980s was primarily on the revenue sports of men's hoop and football. I'm not saying that was correct or what we need to return to, just that we mostly differed fundamentally in this regard than the other core PL schools leading up to the formation of the PL. I will say this, the PL (nee Colonial League) was a "football-only" league for its first few years. Nevah happen, but I wish it would return to that. Football is really the only sport imo that has benefited from being in the PL. Both the M&W hoop teams have had some success but we really aren't at the same level we once were pre "The Decision" as timholycross has defined it. Most of the other sports have struggled more than flourished as I mentioned earlier. What's the solution? Damned if I know....that's why ADKH gets the big bucks. I'm just saying that football in the PL is probably the least of our problems with regards to being in this league. I think folks forget this (or never knew it).
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 22, 2023 10:54:09 GMT -5
I remember William and Mary (and Davidson?) were in or supposed to be in the Colonial Football League but got lost in the shuffle somehow, perhaps leaving before any scheduled games could be played. Was the Duffner homecoming in the mud at Bill and Mary, billed as a clash of 1-AA Titans but actually an HC romp, originally scheduled as a Colonial League tilt?
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Post by efg72 on Sept 22, 2023 10:56:13 GMT -5
Go to the Twitter/X statement by OSU AD Gene Smith, saying in some cases, it costs $5,000 to get a player to visit. I don't think that is the world certain coaches want to work in moving forward, but I could be wrong.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 22, 2023 11:00:58 GMT -5
Go to the Twitter/X statement by OSU AD Gene Smith, saying in some cases, it costs $5,000 to get a player to visit. I don't think that is the world certain coaches want to work in moving forward, but I could be wrong. Good point. Even though Fitton Field is famously (on this board only🙂) in a flood plain, HC FB is high and dry away from the FBS swamp.
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